When using the Bridge II, how good or bad Roon sounds is really up to the Bridge II, don’t you think? “Roon Ready” means the Bridge II must support Roon RAAT but that is just a way to get the bits to the Bridge II. How they sound is really up to the Bridge II. If MPD sounds better, isn’t that because of the code on the Bridge II that plays Roon? If the Bridge II code handed off the information Roon sent to it to MPD, would they not sound the same?
Elk saidSeegs108 said Roon has the potentual to sound as good as other services.What do you place in the category of “other services?” That is, to what are you comparing Roon?
JRiver, BubbleUPnP, Foobar2000, AssetUPnP and a couple lesser known apps.
wakethetown saidJah no dead! How does the reggae sound on your righteous system? Divine, I’m guessing? How do you like the Sutherland 20/20?
Love the Sutherland; however, I do use a step up transformer. The step up transformer changes the 20/20 from a good preamp to a great one (at least for an MC cartridge).
just as an aside, I read a Fremer piece about step up transformers and remembered I had one in my audio “junk” box. Tried it with the Sutherland, and I’ve never looked back.
badbeef saidWhen I make these statements I'm judging Roon in the most objective manner that I can think of. To do that I've tried to remove as many factors as possible. I'm able to use Roon, JRiver, Foobar2000, BubbleUPnP and other applications with the exact same hardware to judge relative sound quality differences. Everything is sent via UPnP to my Sonore SSR over a galvanically isolated network. All audio is decoded and rendered on the same device inside the SSR. All applications and audio files sent from these applications follow the exact same route. Based on your signature you're using USB for Roon to feed your Directstream Jr. That right there tells me that you're having Roon decode and render the audio on a PC before it's sent over USB. This is what I was referring to earlier about how someone utilizes Roon will have great affect on sound quality. Roon themselves talk specifically about this and why it's important. They themselves recommend separating the Roon Core from the audio file if possible to specifically help sound quality.Seegs - I feel that we (myself included) also need to be careful about statements like, “I don’t think the argument “Roon sounds bad” is a valid one to make”. Not sure, but I dunno if someone actually baldly stated that. It gets reduced or changed to that over time via the text game of telephone.
I think it’s more nuanced - many of us who have made comparisons in our systems** have noted better SQ with origins other than Roon. I don’t think Roon sounds BAD - I’ve just heard alternatives In My System (IMS - still want to adopt this, though I suppose it “goes without saying”, like IMO) that I prefer sonically. I have not used an interface I prefer functionally over Roon.
**to make qualifications: See your post, and my post above : )
While I agree that every different path the audio takes will give a different sound signature, I just don’t think that Roon itself has a negative affect on the sound if used properly. I think what some of you are hearing is actually the hardware you’re using with Roon having a negative affect on sound quality. I get that some people don’t want an extra device in their system to separate the Core from the audio file. That can be a pain. I also completely understand that in your way of using Roon, in your system, it make sound worse. I’m not trying to tell you otherwise. I just get a sense that some people reading some of the posts here might think that Roon does not have the potential to sound as good, as if it were inherently flawed somehow and I’m only here making a statement that if used properly it sounds just as good as other popular music control and playback software. Whether or not someone wants to go through the extra steps to make it sound as good as possible is up to them. Until Octave is released, nothing can beat Roon’s UI. So for me, these extra steps are worthwhile.
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Seegs - points understood and taken. The way I use Roon, I don’t really concern myself over whether or not I’m extracting the best possible sound from it - hence my Post 36. I’ve run it straight to the BridgeII before (and have again briefly with the current update) and I usually have preferred the galvanically isolated USB setup over the Bridge. I suspect if I focused my tweaking on optimizing the ethernet chain (LPS’s on the router/switch, “gooder” ethernet cables, etc.) I could get that sounding better. My feeling/impression that other things could sound better than Roon was based on comparing it many moons ago with iTunes with Bit Perfect on the same computer rig. But I effing HATE iTunes, and LOVE using Roon.
I usually listen to the DMP or vinyl, so the whole Roon/Bridge/computer audio server mess is sorta third on my list of sources, and I use it for fun and convenience rather than critical listening. I mean, some folks think vinyl is fussy or a pain in the ass - yet seem to have endless patience and actually ENJOY the endless permutations of server audio! To each his own. I note that more and more folks hereabouts are using purely computer-audio-ish front ends, and this is doubtless they way it’s going generally, so I get why all of that is a big deal.
Beef: Although I personally prefer local streaming to physical discs for several reasons, I agree that computer audio is probably much more pain to most than vinyl would ever be. Let alone the retagging activity after once setup and cared for a troublefree network. Fine for those with the basic knowledge but it’s not for everyone and in my eyes even the most simplified server doesn’t change a lot (except that eliminating the PC in the chain is a great advantage in terms of setup effort)…but the continuous tagging/categorizing work remains.
But I think computer audio or local streaming instead of physical discs can’t only be reduced to a complex activity for IT freaks and an illegal hires download paradise, but besides convenience within large collections is the only way of access to higher PCM sampling rates than redbook and higher DSD sampling rates than SACD. Why limit PCM recordings to CD standard when more than 50% is available in higher resolutions…
badbeef saidI usually listen to the DMP or vinyl, so the whole Roon/Bridge/computer audio server mess is sorta third on my list of sources, and I use it for fun and convenience rather than critical listening. I mean, some folks think vinyl is fussy or a pain in the ass - yet seem to have endless patience and actually ENJOY the endless permutations of server audio! To each his own. I note that more and more folks hereabouts are using purely computer-audio-ish front ends, and this is doubtless they way it’s going generally, so I get why all of that is a big deal.
""That’s exactly as I see it… I went hell for leather into computer audio only to become totally pissed off with an endless cycle of problems and poor sound… Luckily - I kept all my cd’s and sacd’s ( several thousand and I still have my records and a few record decks, etc ), listening via the DMP and DS/ Redcloud ‘it is a pure joy’… Much more musical… Another level of enjoyment over streaming… My friend’s 13 year-old grandson has been fighting a cancer battle - ‘‘which he is winning’’ - Richie is mad keen on music so between us I put a system together with a DS as the jewel in the crown and I also gifted the youngster all my computer audio server kit, cables, filters, etc… Ritchie is loving his new system… Good luck to the boy… I will just stick with hard copy … As badbeef said… To each his own !!
Seegs108 saidWhile I agree that every different path the audio takes will give a different sound signature, I just don’t think that Roon itself has a negative affect on the sound if used properly. I think what some of you are hearing is actually the hardware you’re using with Roon having a negative affect on sound quality. I get that some people don’t want an extra device in their system to separate the Core from the audio file. That can be a pain.
Does Roon require more care, more hardware, more effort to obtain sound quality equivalent to other applications?
My impression is Roon can sound good, but the path can be torturous.
[Robert, your post is blank. You should be able to go back and edit it, using the edit button, including deleting this note. 
ELK]
badbeef said. . . some folks think vinyl is fussy or a pain in the ass - yet seem to have endless patience and actually ENJOY the endless permutations of server audio!
For many who enjoy vinyl, the fussy rituals and physicality is a significant part of the experience which they enjoy. The requisite tweaking and effort of vinyl easily translates to fussing over computer audio. It meets the same audiophilic need. Some enjoy one form over the other.
Elk - that’s generous of you to equate the two, but I have not been able to pick up a 12x12” photograph/sleeve of my digital files, pull out a hefty slab of digital vinyl, and put it on the server. : )
Even though I have (fairly ironically) been enjoying a muted version of that with CDs on the DMP…swiping pages of album icons in Roon - while amazingly convenient and so forth - just does not have the same experiential gravitas.
That’s true, some, maybe most enjoy this in vinyl, hardly anyone in Server audio. I personally don’t enjoy the real fussy rituals much in either case…here digital discs have their place although I otherwise prefer server audio.
Badbeef, I understand. I, too, like slipping an LP out of its jacket. It is deliciously sensual.
But many audiophiles love to tweak, adjust, fuss. They simply choose their preferred format, be it vinyl, tubes, wires, computer components and gadgets, etc.
Wow - just have to comment on my own post : )
Sounds pretty snobby - “experiential gravitas”…like when I pick up a copy of Sticky Fingers, I’m experiencing “gravitas’ - aside from the gravity of 1.5 grams of force on the cartridge ; )
I like the phrase a great deal.
I need more experiential gravitas in my life.
Elk saidExtra hardware, sure, but not more care or effort. The extra device needed is plug n' play with only 2 extra minutes of setup needed (for Roon only, not all software) and you're done indefinitely. Vinyl is no different in that correct hardware choices are also of great importance to make sure you get the best sound from that medium. I would even argue that vinyl requires more tedious maintenance and needs more overall care. Hell, Michael Fremer argues you need a microscope to set up a turn table properly to get the most from it. My Sonore Signature Series Rendu (SSR) is the only extra thing needed and there is nothing to "set up" as it's a plug n'play device. Plug in the power cord, connect the I²S output with an HDMI cable to the Directstream and plug in an ethernet cable so it's connected to the router. That's it. Open up JRiver (or any other application supporting UPnP output) and it automatically sees the SSR. There is no extra software needed and there are no settings that require tweaking. To get Roon to work I need one extra thing in my system and that is something called a Sonore microRendu. Because the SSR isn't a Roon endpoint I need to add the microRendu into my system. This device essentially tricks Roon into thinking the SSR is a Roon endpoint. This is setup similarly (power cord and ethernet cable) with one extra step in software. But the software is easy to setup (Sonore gives you a step by step guide with images) and is done and over in 2 minutes. No more tweaking or fiddling is required ever again. You can now get years of enjoyment from your music.Does Roon require more care, more hardware, more effort to obtain sound quality equivalent to other applications?
My impression is Roon can sound good, but the path can be torturous.
Elk - Don’t we all? And isn’t that what we’re seeking?
As stated in the NYTimes article entitled, “The Avalanche of Rock n’ Roll Death”, in a couple of sentences that sum up something trenchant with humor:
“But at this point, as a middle-aged rock fan, with hip-hop and R&B having surpassed the form in popularity, you’d have to be dead yourself not to consider the fading of the culture, and along with it, your own youth. Fifty years after the Summer of Love, we’ve entered the Winter of Ulcerative Colitis.”
Seegs - again - point taken, and I did not mean to suggest vinyl was easy. But are you saying the steps you outlined were all you did/all you needed to do? Otherwise why did you do the comparisons with the other software you mentioned earlier? And no comparisons made with Roon with other hardware than the rendu?
Jah saidTo answer you Tkiat, all else being equal, the sound quality comparisons (1 being the best sound):
USB Memory stick plugged into Bryston (MPD)
NAS to Bryston (MPD)
ROCK on fanless Intel i7, 400W PC
Roon on Windows10 (same PC platform as above) with Fidelizer Purist setting
ROCK on Intel i5 NUC - sound of ROCK on the NUC is basically lifeless with a lot of smearing of detail. I would not recommend it except for background music through limited range speakers.
Just realized this list was not clear. Options 3 through 5 all feed the Bryston via a wired network (the final switch is right behind my equipment rack). The PC and the NUC were both setup in another room. The only device directly connected to the DS DAC is the Bryston (through a LAN rover).
What makes all other configurations inferior to the memory stick MPD is, as I mentioned, the ability to clearly hear woodwinds within an orchestral piece (Beethoven Piano Concerto #3). In every other configuration, the woodwinds are there (having clearly heard them in config 1, I can now pick them out), but I have to listen very carefully.
badbeef saidYes, that is literally all that is needed to do. The SSR is essentially plug n' play. I did the comparison because Roon costs a lot more money than any of the other software I've previously used. It was necessary to be sure Roon was worth the money. I wanted to be sure sound quality was not affected to gain that beautiful GUI. Nothing out now comes close. I would have stuck with JRiver for less money and a somewhat less polished GUI, but it doesn't support Tidal.Seegs - again - point taken, and I did not mean to suggest vinyl was easy. But are you saying the steps you outlined were all you did/all you needed to do? Otherwise why did you do the comparisons with the other software you mentioned earlier? And no comparisons made with Roon with other hardware than the rendu?