SACD to -R DVD?


#1

I’m “old school” : I prefer the original shiny disk in my hand and do not stream.

However: there isn’t a huge CD selection to “try before you buy” where I stay, and for this reason I have found the cutting .WAV to -R DVD feature of the PWT tremendously useful. So, I confess: I torrent; evaluate … then when I’ve got a decent order together I get what I want via Amazon.

On the same website I’ve also noticed SACD. So my question is:- Did anyone try SACD rips in the DMP and did they work?

My DMP is on it’s way and I’m curious …


#2

Yes - they do.respect-047_gif

You can’t simply copy the SACD though - you need just the .dsf files in a single list.


#3
badbeef said

Yes - they do.respect-047_gif

You can’t simply copy the SACD though - you need just the .dsf files in a single list.


I don’t know if you are explicitly ruling out using iso files or that you don’t know that writing iso files to DVDs works on some players out there (including Oppos.) I both have iso files that I’ve purchased and that I’ve ripped and I’ll try them in my DMP when I get it set up.

#4

Thank you Ted, Badbeef.

The next question of course is: Assuming the ISO don’t work [and I’ll wait for Ted once he’s tried it out] then how to extract the .DSF from the ISO? As I understand, .DSF (as with .WAV) cut to -R DVD will work.

I also wonder if the quality from the .DSF cut to DVD will be the same as with the actual SACD. I mean, I’d hate to dismiss purchasing the SACD due to a crappy sounding .DSF.

I used to have an “understanding” (based on trust) with a music store who had a huge selection: I buy (say) x15 CD’s … and if I’m not happy (buyer’s remorse), then I can bring back the few I don’t like and swop for something else. No ways I can do this with SACD, so I’m really hoping for a workabout solution to “try before you buy”.


#5

Creating a (set of) dsf from a iso can be completely lossless, but there are plenty of tools out there with bugs. The most likely places for things to go wrong are at the ends of the files. Even some sets of dsf files from reliable outlets have problems when you try to play them back to back gaplessly. Also some streaming software have problems playing gaplessly via DoP from separate files. The DMP may play .dsf files gaplessly, but I don’t know for sure just yet.

Conversely playing from an iso may require real time uncompressing of the DST compressed parts of an SACD. Normally the multichannel section of the SACD is DST compressed and the stereo section isn’t, but some SACDs are different. The DMP will probably play iso’s and dst’s essentially identically, but some software players may have problems or at least a lot more noise since decompressing DST isn’t a natural thing on a general purpose processor and hence requires gobs of CPU.

Still the biggest risk in assuming a DSF represents the quality of an SACD is knowing the provenance of the DSF file - did it really come from the particular SACD you think it did? I have two versions of the early Sony SACDs from Sony (and can, at times, hear the differences) and I know of other material that’s been released on multiple SACDs from different labels that has presumably been mastered differently for each of them.


#6
Ted Smith said

I don’t know if you are explicitly ruling out using iso files or that you don’t know that writing iso files to DVDs works on some players out there (including Oppos.) I both have iso files that I’ve purchased and that I’ve ripped and I’ll try them in my DMP when I get it set up.


Haven’t tried it, but I suspect they would work as well as the SACD works - which in some cases, is not fully. The DMP has issues with some menu structures/multiple-format discs. I have some rips that I made from SACDs I own - I’ll have to compare them burned to DVD with the original SACD.

plcomp - pretty sure I used SACD rip Mac with my Oppo 105. Only certain players work.


#7

FWIW .dsf’s work fine here, and .iso’s don’t - on the other hand I usually built a few coasters each time I tried to burn a DVD for the PWT. So far the .dsf’s seem to be gapless (I’m playing I Robot right now.)


#8

So - interesting. Burned an album of .dsf files ripped from the SACD (same one used for the comparison) to DVD-ROM, and compared a track about 6 times, back and forth.

The SACD sounds better to me. Smoother, more fleshly in the vocal, slightly different imaging. They both sound GOOD, but they DO seem to sound different. Didn’t expect that.

And (on the other hand) when I navigate on the DMP to the track I’m comparing on the SACD, it starts a second or so in, vs. the rip, which starts at the beginning of the track. So some good, some bad. : )

Also - rip may have been done with iso2dsd. I know I downloaded both, but still not positive which I used. It was a while ago.


#9
Ted Smith said

The DMP may play .dsf files gaplessly, but I don’t know for sure just yet.

I have DSF files of the Mahler 8th Symphony by the SFO. These were purchased from Blue Coast and burned to DVD. The last movement is divided into multiple tracks. Played on the DMP there are gaps at each transition making it unusable to me. Hopefully a fix will be found it some point.

#10
st50maint said
Ted Smith said The DMP may play .dsf files gaplessly, but I don't know for sure just yet.

I have DSF files of the Mahler 8th Symphony by the SFO.
These were purchased from Blue Coast and burned to DVD.
The last movement is divided into multiple tracks.
Played on the DMP there are gaps at each transition making it unusable to me.
Hopefully a fix will be found it some point.


The gaps might be in the DSF files rather than the DMP - I don’t have enough information to know which. If you have foobar2000 (or perhaps JRiver MC, etc.) set up, it plays other material gaplessly for you and it plays the DSF SFO gaplessly then you could blame the DMP. I have to listen to more material to feel comfortable saying that the DMP plays dsf files gaplessly.

#11
badbeef said

So - interesting. Burned an album of .dsf files ripped from the SACD (same one used for the comparison) to DVD-ROM, and compared a track about 6 times, back and forth.

The SACD sounds better to me. Smoother, more fleshly in the vocal, slightly different imaging. They both sound GOOD, but they DO seem to sound different. Didn’t expect that.

And (on the other hand) when I navigate on the DMP to the track I’m comparing on the SACD, it starts a second or so in, vs. the rip, which starts at the beginning of the track. So some good, some bad. : )

Also - rip may have been done with iso2dsd. I know I downloaded both, but still not positive which I used. It was a while ago.


Just goes to show that “everything makes a difference”. Still hearing a difference in imaging and having cueing issues makes me ask if you are sure that you are playing the stereo section of the SACD and that the DSF files came from the stereo section…

#12
Ted Smith said

Just goes to show that “everything makes a difference”. Still hearing a difference in imaging and having cueing issues makes me ask if you are sure that you are playing the stereo section of the SACD and that the DSF files came from the stereo section…

...jeez - I'm getting similar incredulity from the Stellar team. The S300 I got for the beta was not magical. So, yeah, I can't tell the difference between the stereo program and the L/R surround channels. So no worries. Disregard my posts.itwasntme_gif

The difference between the files was VERY slight. And I was saying that the SACD in the DMP sounded better than a rip. Not sure why you would question my judgement based on that.tmi_gif

The DMP navigation of the SACD is independent of any comparison with another disc, and has been documented in the beta fairly extensively.


#13

Sorry no offence intended, I don’t doubt what you heard and I grant you that you (and many others) have more experience with the DMP than I do.

I’ve just been subject to SACD players (not the DMP) that play the left and right of the multichannel section of an SACD (with no way to get to the stereo layer) and other such unexpected anomalies, so I always check. Especially when cueing isn’t working as expected. I also know that until recently most iso to dsf tools available (even for professionals) screwed up the ends of the dsf files (the spec is weird and you also have to choose your edit points carefully…)


#14
Ted Smith said

The gaps might be in the DSF files rather than the DMP - I don’t have enough information to know which. If you have foobar2000 (or perhaps JRiver MC, etc.) set up, it plays other material gaplessly for you and it plays the DSF SFO gaplessly then you could blame the DMP. I have to listen to more material to feel comfortable saying that the DMP plays dsf files gaplessly.


Ted, I only have the ability to play discs.

if it would be helpful, I could send you a DVD with dsf files of the last movement of the Mahler 8th so you figure out what is causing the gap problem?


#15

Sure, PM me. We can figure something out.


#16

Ted - sorry, was feeling grumpy!

In this case, the SACD is stereo-only (AKUS “Forget About It”). The DMP has been known by some to switch to the CD layer, or at least show as PCM rather than DSD on the Jr.'s display - though that’s not something I’ve had a problem with. In some cases, resetting the default layer fixed it, and others not, as I recall.

The rip files are the proper size (around 150MB each). I (and others) got so tired of the DMP’s navigation issues that I generally use it as I would a TT - just put in a disc and play it through. Skipping around is asking for trouble, and in this case I was comparing the 2nd tracks. Starts from the beginning of the track on the rip, but not on the “real” SACD. The DMP just seems to do best navigation-wise with a single list of tracks at the top level of the disc.


#17
st50maint said I have DSF files of the Mahler 8th Symphony by the SFO. These were purchased from Blue Coast and burned to DVD. The last movement is divided into multiple tracks. Played on the DMP there are gaps at each transition making it unusable to me. Hopefully a fix will be found it some point.
I got your DVD and indeed the .dsf files are fine and play gaplessly in foobar2000 but not in the DMP.

#18
Ted Smith said
st50maint said I have DSF files of the Mahler 8th Symphony by the SFO. These were purchased from Blue Coast and burned to DVD. The last movement is divided into multiple tracks. Played on the DMP there are gaps at each transition making it unusable to me. Hopefully a fix will be found it some point.

I got your DVD and indeed the .dsf files are fine and play gaplessly in foobar2000 but not in the DMP.


Thanks for looking at this Ted.

It appears that the DMP is at fault.

Hopefully engineering is aware of this problem and will eventually have a solution for it.


#19

So, wouldn’t a disk full of DSF files be the same as any other disc containing data files, such as FLAC or WAV, whether on an optical disc or an attached USB drive? Those don’t play without gaps - why would DSF be any different? This isn’t an SACD-R - it’s a disc full of data.


#20

FLAC or WAV files do play gaplessly if they are designed to do so. I have a FLAC version of Beethoven’s 5th Piano Concerto, purchased as a digital download, and the last two movements play with no break as they should (and they are separate files). I confess I have never tried putting these on an optical disc. Does a UPnP control point or a player like foobar do something special to get the proper transition, something that a transport like the DMP doesn’t know about?