When does it make sense to get a M1200 with Per Plant 12 vs BHK 300 monos with Power Plant 15?
Obviously, the later will be better and have more of this and that. It’s difficult to quantify how much more of this and that and how much better, and then make a decision based also on price. So my question, in more detail, is where is the cutoff in making a purchase of one of these setups, where the rest of your system would not allow you to fully benefit from the upgrade?
For example, if you have a highly resolving system that can fully benefit from an upgrade to an M1200/PP12 combo, but isn’t quite as good as PS Audio’s IRS listening room, what would be the cut off point where it does not make sense to spend double the money because the rest of your system couldn’t resolve a good portion of the benefit?
Perhaps examples of equipment, or dollar tags of other equipment in the system, or recommended pairings would help answer this question. I hope I’m making my question clear.
I know someone might want to answer, “get the most you can afford”, but there are times when buying what you can afford may not necessarily be a good idea. (You maybe able to afford a Lamborghini, but if you don’t have a garage to store it in and live on dirt roads with 15mph speed limits, it’s a bad idea to buy one.)
We debated about that for some time and this is part of the reason we do beta testing to find what people like and don’t like. Thanks for the feedback.
Most folks aren’t going to swap tubes. Of those that do, it’s not hard to get your fingers in. I can do it easily. But for some, it’s going to be a challenge.
So, if it turns out we should include the tube puller with purchase then we will.
We chose not to for a couple of reasons: we can’t put it in one box and not the other when selling a matched pair. Thus, everyone would get two pullers when most people honestly don’t even need one. Secondly, we don’t want to encourage tube swapping. It’s certainly alright and for some, part of the fun. But it’s not what we want to promote as we spent a great deal of time hand selecting those tubes and voicing the amp around them.
Yeah,you’re probably right Elk…I would also suspect that swapping out power tubes on a power amp would give more of a sound quality uptick than an amplifier that utilizes signal/driver tubes only. From my experience,if you want to really see what signal/driver tubes can do…its best to do that in a preamp…it can certainly be a game changer imho.
This is great question. I’d say look at your speakers and source(s). Those arguably have more impact on sound quality than differences between the amps and regen you mention. Note I said arguably.
Those amp products aren’t designed to compete with each other (as you know). I posted a list of a dozen or so competitor amps to m1200 I was hoping some might compare them to, and bhk would have a similar but higher priced list that would bring in some heavierweights.
If you’re locked in to PSA, I say look at rest of system not just today but also plan where you see speakers and sources going (if any changes expected) during your expected time of ownership of 1200s or bhk.
Probably not much help but like you I really enjoy pondering the important tough question you asked. System compatibility really important. I asked a similar question relating to stellar phono pre a week ago
@Rudolf_Appel’s tact, tone and tenaciousness aside, he is (I believe) trying to make a point that has apparently been overlooked (if not misunderstood) in this thread.
That being, a BETA TESTER commented that when he tried to insert tubes he noted that the process was (paraphrasing here) too “stressful” in that the point where the tubes are seated tended to move about or give way while trying to seat the tubes. His concern, and a fair point that PS audio should like to hear about I expect, is that the kit may very well be damaged during the process if steps are not taken to shore up pieces and parts making up the tube sockets.
Does anyone have an argument with the point that PSA customers will swap out tubes? If the final version of the amps can be modified to eliminate this issue (assuming the OP’s observation is true and/or not just a one off), then I would submit that the beta test had served its purpose in at least this regard.
I know tube rolling can be a lot of fun but Darren has mentioned to me a number of times he doesn’t want to encourage folks to do it. Unlike the BHK pre that can accept various tubes, (6V/12V) Darren’s input stage was designed exclusively with the 12AU7 architecture in mind.
I don’t know why this point isn’t brought up more, but the tubes we put in there stock are damn fine tubes! We chose them for a number of reasons and notably, it’s because of the way they sound.
Our service guys will occasionally get a call and the customer mentions they are getting some loud ticks and pops in their BHK amp or pre. Luckily they’ve gotten in the habit of asking what tubes are in there. Before though, we would be really confused and bring in the misbehaving piece to see what is going on. We’d get the amp or pre on the bench and it would measure massively out of spec. Install some fresh new stock tubes and she starts singing like normal.
Thank you @scotte1. My tone was indeed excited as I did not feel that Paul’s respons appropriately addressed the issue reported by the beta tester, I think it was @nmcleod. It was an important issue that needs to be addressed more serious.
Where I work, we assess, test, report, review and certify electrical connections every day, especially for longevity under many different circumstances. There is a good reason for it: many fire and shock issues start with poor electrical connections.
When reading the feedback of the beta tester, I shared the issues we see with electrical contacts in similar situations. I hope that Information can be used to the advantage of PS Audio and the owners of the M1200.
The reason I referred to Octave:
Somebody has asked in this thread or forum about longevity of tubes in the M1200. Paul did explain in this forum that the M1200 has features that support longevity of the tubes, like switching them off when in stand by mode. There might be other features that we do not know about.
I think it’s good to advertise those in the M1200 catalogue and on the WEB site. Life time of tubes even if it are rough indications are important to know. Especially for those just starting to become interested in tubes. Tube rolling might not be their primary interest, and for them it is comforting to know that they don’t buy an amp that would require tube rolling every few months.
I was breathing a sigh of relief after you said Bye PS Audio in another post. Don’t make our lives even more miserable while we are stuck at home. By keeping your word, this is the best favor you can do for many of us.
This is the first time I’ve heard the tube issue explained in this way. Now I have a better understanding of the situation. Saying that tube rolling is not recommended because the stock tubes were carefully chosen because they sounded best sends one message while Paul’s information that the amps were specifically voiced around the chosen tube is something else entirely. With the first scenario, it is easier to argue that just because the stock tubes sound best, it only means they sounded best of the ones that were tried, not that there aren’t other tubes out there that would sound better. However, with the amp being specifically voiced around the stock tube, the likelihood of a different tube sounding better is significantly reduced.
As for the flexing, that seems to be inherent when the tube socket is mounted to a PCB instead of something rigid like the chassis. My take away is that, while you always have to be careful when changing tubes, a little extra caution would be prudent with the M1200s as well as minimizing the number of tube swaps.
I recall a “Paul’s Posts” where the Gaffer stated why tubes* were such a drag - correctly in my opinion, but do sometimes add a wonderful tonality (distortion or impedance matching, whatever, nowt wrong with that if it sounds subjectively better).
So all this grief (and great tonality etc.) Is the “fault” whomever persuaded him to start using tubes* in some PS audio kit. I think we know who that was
Damnit valves!!! You Americans are a bad influence on my use of language
That quote can be read incorrectly and is out of context. The literature/manual that shipped with the amp, in it states: “If you are having difficulty reaching the tube with your hands , we offer a specialized tube puller on our website”.
As in, optional. I think the tube puller is becoming a red herring.
nmcleod was clearly just establishing his position in the event he needs warranty service so as not to have voided warranty if he is later so challenged. I recognize such cya language like a sore thumb. This post is tongue-in-cheek. Keep it fun. : )
@jamesh: Just to be crystal clear (since there appears to be some sort of contrarian, group-think/psychological barrier to focusing on this point), I think this observation is worth noting. If it is a non-starter/non-concern from PSA’s perspective, so be it. Assuming it is an accurate observation (and there is NO reason to believe it is not), it certainly strikes me as being a relevant piece of Beta Tester feed-back. I imagine PSA will do with it what it wills, so to speak.
