Thanks for the suggestion, and I just posted there. I installed MinimServer to take a look, and from what I can tell from its operation and the user guide, it’s specific content oriented. That is, it wants file locations on the computer to be specified. That would apply to a movie file or Spotify or a radio station, so I asked about how that would or would not apply to online streaming. And to be clear what I mean by the latter, it might be a news clip, a YouTube video or a sports event.
If all you intend to do is use UPnP:Teds DSD DAC (or what ever the DS bridge is called on your machine) as the output driver in foobar2000 then I’d recommend that you simplify the universe and only install UPnP MediaRenderer Output (foo_out_upnp) It has virtually no configuration and just seems to work.
If you are going to drive foobar2000 with a UPnP controller or need either foobar2000’s UPnP Server or Browser then you have to deal with UPnP/DLNA Renderer, Server, Control Point (foo_upnp)
With foo_upnp installed I often get long timeouts in foobar2000 when first getting things to run with the bridge. If I wait a minute or two things seem to work, but a misstep will cause another very annoying wait. It is possible to get it to work reliably, but I’m not the one to say how.
Ted, I did install the UPnP MediaRenderer Output component in foobar, which I assume is how I’m getting the UPnP choice in the Output Device setting (it wasn’t there before that install). Are you proposing something different? It takes 4 to 6 seconds for audio to start and stop/pause, but I just assumed it has a few rivers to cross between HDD, router and Bridge - that is, until I got to Wavestream (below). Perhaps I’m not understanding your post entirely, as I’m not clear how all that applies to the main audio problem we were discussing.
As for Wavestream, the good news is that the other types of audio are now working (!). The bad news is that audio takes 4 seconds to start and then picture/audio are out of sync about that much.
One other thing: I installed Wavestream from a link on page 1 in that forum and though the MS Resdistributable shows as x64, as is my computer, WS installed in the x86 folder. Ok, that happens, but when I go to the SourceForge page and try a WaveStream version that says it was updated five days ago, I got the following error message on install: “A newer version of Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 Redistributable has been detected on the machine.” What should I make of that? (http://sourceforge.net/projects/wavestreamer/?source=dlp)
highstream said
I installed MinimServer to take a look, and from what I can tell from its operation and the user guide, it's specific content oriented. That is, it wants file locations on the computer to be specified. That would apply to a movie file or Spotify or a radio station, so I asked about how that would or would not apply to online streaming. And to be clear what I mean by the latter, it might be a news clip, a YouTube video or a sports event.
I hope Simon (developer of MinimServer) will give you a more definitive answer. Here's what I know, and I'm not the most technical guy in the universe.
Your basic idea about MinimStreamer is correct. To play internet radio, I locate the URL of the stations I want and put them in a playlist, using the format specified in the MinimStreamer documentation. I assume that anything that comes with a URL, such as a YouTube video, could also be played. I don’t know how Spotify etc. work. The nice thing about this approach is that the internet radio stations can now be played from within MinimServer, just like my albums; previously I had to run a separate internet radio app.
Not entirely clear what you’re saying, since the few radio stations I listen to all have their own streaming links, which I put on the desktop or as a bookmark. Does MinimServer help with that?
I see you reposted the WaveStream comments in Dennis’s WaveStream thread, which is the best place for it. Btw, i got that same message when I tried to install WS on my Windows 7 64 bit Home Premium system. I did not find a workaround but didn’t much care.
Ted’s point may have been aimed more at those of us who were suggesting to people that they should download both of the foobar2000 UPnP components. I didn’t think the “UPnP/DLNA Renderer, Server, Control Point 0.99.48” component was strictly necessary if you were just using the Bridge but wasn’t sure and it didn’t seem to hurt. Ted is correct that you only need “UPnP MediaRenderer Output 1.0 beta 4” (foo.out.upnp). To make sure I just did a fresh install on my old i3 Win 7 64 bit Home Premium machine. The steps:
Pick a basic “appearance” when prompted (doesn’t really matter which).
Go to the components page on the foobar site and download UPnP MediaRenderer Output 1.0 beta 4 and install it. Apply the change and restart foobar2000 when promoted.
In preferences/output, select your PWD or DS and 24 bits.
In preferences/media library, point it to your music folder(s) (loading the library was the only step that took much time and even that is pretty fast).
In my case, I use the monkeymote4foobar iPad controller so I installed its component (when you purchase the app from the App Store, it will tell you where to find it; you get it from the monkeymote site and it installs like other foobar components; you need to restart foobar2000 after installing it).
That was it. I opened monkeymote on my iPad, selected that machine, and music played (without gaps). As Ted said, it just worked and there was almost nothing to configure.
highstream said
Not entirely clear what you're saying, since the few radio stations I listen to all have their own streaming links, which I put on the desktop or as a bookmark. Does MinimServer help with that?
I do not run a computer when I listen to music (at least I try not to . . . ) so I don't use a web browser for internet radio. My music, and MinimServer, are on a NAS that I control with my iPad. MinimServer (with MinimStreamer installed) lets me access internet radio stations from a playlist. So I open the playlist called "Internet radio" and then select the one I want. No need to leave my control point.
stevem2, Do you have any audio-video sync problems with A-V players or streaming other than foobar? I’ve been using foobar since last summer, so I had those install and media library steps down, thanks.
Like with Vincent Burrell’s ASIO Bridge program, foobar quickly comes to a halt when output setting is UPnP and Wavestream is running; one has to use DS:Speakers (Wavestream) instead or close Wavestream altogether. Will have to compare the two settings sonically, as well as against my USB set up.
After all this, audio with Wavestream stopped all of a sudden. Looking closer, it had quit recognizing the dac. Then, I found the UPnP MediaRenderer Output plugin in foobar had dropped off foobar’s output device list, even though the component is installed. A system restore didn’t solve it, so I uninstalled Wavestream and the UPnP plugin and reinstalled the latter. UPnP then appeared in the device list, then dropped off on next look. Strange. On the PWD’s Bridge screen, no output device shows, i.e., no foobar… or PS Audio stream. USB plays ok. Makes me think the PWD and Bridge need resetting or foobar needs reinstall. The first would seem easier. That make sense? How does one reset it? Thanks,
I don’t use the Bridge for video so syncing is not an issue for me. There is invariably a delay when the Bridge starts playing (at least in part to load the buffer in the Bridge’s digital lens) that is obviously problematic for video. On high resolution files the delay is even longer. E.g., for 192/24 or 176/24 files, the delay is about 12 seconds in my case.
The easiest way to reset the Bridge is to get its DNS address and put that into your browser. (On your touchscreen, bring up the list of inputs and scroll to the Bridge (may just say PWD), press the green button on the right and then the network settings button to get the address. Mine is 192.168.1.9 but yours will likely be different. There is also a free iDevice app called Fing that will sniff out all the devices on your local network.) The PWD browser page has a “Reset UPnP Server” button that often works. There is also a reset button that you will see if you follow my instructions to get the Bridge DNS instructions. If all else fails, turn the PWD off and back on using the switch on the back.
When you say the “output plugin 'n foobar had dropped off” do you just mean the PWD was not listed? If so, that sounds like a connection problem, which unfortunately is not unusual with the Bridge. Resetting the Bridge should do the trick (start with the web page and then the on/off switch if that doesn’t do it).
Connection problem solved - well, not completely. On the PWD’s Bridge screen, even though up top it says network connected, one has to press the start arrow to get connected, it’s not automatic in Bridge mode. Then everything shows up again in foobar with UPnP and WaveStream. OTOH, pushing the remote’s start/pause button stops the music, but pushing it again doesn’t restart the audio (foobar). I had to stop the play in foobar, then restart and push the PWD’s start icon (probably other combos that would work, but that’s what I did).
You mention a PWD browser with UPnP reset page; where is that?
As for buffering, I understand, as it’s common with online videos as well. But I was under the impression that programs which buffer are written to sync audio and video, at least as it is contained in the file being played on a computer or downloaded online. Those extended delays can effect music playing too, for example when the phone rings and one has to quickly decide between mute (music continues), stop and or the time to do both.
The Bridge has a DNS address just like any other internet device. I described how to get it from the touchscreen. Just plug that series of numbers into your browser address field.
The Bridge only deals with audio. It has no facilities to sync video.
My point is that it doesn’t “sync” music audio with the program playing it either. Not sure to what degree that’s hardware or software related, but it does undermine the value of the Bridge and WaveStream. And as far as the Bridge goes, it’s definitely an unadvertised limitation. I wouldn’t have purchased a used one with the Bridge if I’d known that.
This is far from unique to the Bridge. It is exceedingly common for even a single unit (such as a TV being used to display a DVD) to have timing issues syncing audio and video. Thus, DVD players have the ability to dial in the appropriate amount of compensation to re-sync the audio and video.
highstream, the “unadvertised limitation” of which you speak is a direct consequence of one the primary, and certainly well advertised, features of the Bridge–the built-in digital lens. That circuitry buffers the signal and reclocks it, substantially reducing jitter. You can’t have the full benefit of that without the delay. You can get some of it–the Mk. II upgrade, when using NativeX, also uses a type of digital lens (with all inputs) that does not seem to significantly increase the delay. To the extent the Bridge sounds better than other inputs (opinions vary but many of us still hear a difference, particularly on a PWD versus a DS), it’s because of the Bridge’s digital lens.
If you are unhappy with your purchase, I suggest you talk to your seller or put your unit on the market.
stevem2, If you go back to the first half of this thread, I asked what the Bridge actually does and made explicit my intention in considering buying a PWD with Bridge to use with a computer and specifically an HDD that contains music and video (I already had a PWD w/o the Bridge). I also posed very directly my interest in how using USB vs. ethernet would affect sound quality, and whether or not in that context the Bridge would be good enough to allow me to get rid of some USB hardware. It would be foolish to get rid of good USB components if that meant having to watch news clips, YouTube video or a separate media player with substantial syncing issues. You’ll note that not one of the forum experts and community leaders, or anyone else that responded, mentioned signal delay or syncing issues in using the Bridge with a computer and music or video. I take that as an indication of how well the timing limitation is advertised (or perhaps understood).
Yes, syncing is an issue between hardware. And the common practice is for manufacturers (e.g., Oppo) and software developers (all over the 'net) to deal with it directly with different kinds of internal and user adjustments and fixes (just as PS Audio does with balance on the remote). To just pass it off as, Well, that’s the digital lens with the Bridge" as if potential buyers all know what that entails, really doesn’t cut it.
Look, this is not a pissing contest. The point is that if a company producing high class equipment is going to put a timing issue out there effecting its operation with music and video, then there’s a responsibility to deal with it directly or with workarounds, or to put it in plain English that accepting the issue is part of the price of admission. My first sense in hearing about WaveStream was the idea that PS Audio intends to deal with it in the context of making a virtual sound card. I take it you and Elk are saying that’s not the case.
Please do not take my response as implying anything PS Audio may, or my not do. I have no clue.
I note only that audio and video often play out of sync and thus video players typically offer an adjustment. The HDMI protocol also offers auto adjust, but this does not work when the video and audio streams are split, such as sending the audio to an outboard DAC.
I would not mention any such timing issue as I am not a vidiot and care not a whit for home theater; I do not even recall the last movie I saw.
It’s apparently the ethernet route, i.e., use of the Bridge, that’s creating the timing issue, as USB doesn’t have any problem with the PWD or any other of the several dacs I’ve had through here. I use a Patriot Box Office media box to play video and music files with my 2.0 TV setup via HDMI to TV and Toslink to dac (now PWD). I’ve never had any timing issues with that set up, except those that were inherent to the video itself (sound producers say it’s common). The first and only time I’ve had consistent timing problems with TV video was when I auditioned an Oppo 105. And let me tell you, getting audio/video synced is a real pita.
highstream, for the record, prior to post 16 I could not find any reference by you to using any software other than foobar and JPlay. That was after you bought your second PWD. As far as I know, foobar does not do video (I think JRMC may but I have no experience with that). I, and I imagine others, took your questions as relating to playing music over the Bridge, it’s normal use. I cannot speak to what PSA may or may not have told you (post 14) as I was not party to that conversation. However, I have never seen PSA advertise the PWD with or without Bridge as being intended for the purposes you have in mind other than playing audio files. Mentioning you have audio and video files on your hard drive does not let people know that your concern is with video and the Bridge. Neither does mentioning “online streaming,” which, to me at least, sounds more like internet radio than youtube, particularly given that PS Audio is an audio company and these forums are all about audio, and is at best ambiguous. I am sorry if the Bridge has not met your expectations. Numerous people on the forum have attempted to assist you in good faith. None of us are paid by PSA for our efforts. I am sure people will continue to try to help to the extent they can. My last suggestion is to consider using the Bridge for music and USB for the video. You won’t be giving up much in the way of sound quality with the USB connection, particularly with low resolution audio.
By the way, I have also used my PWD/DS for watching TV. I use the Toslink connection for that (or coax from my Blu-ray player) and the Bridge or USB for music. Works well for me.
