We also love cars

:sweat_smile: :laughing:

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About the brakes I can not agree with you. Even the most capable drivers can rarely out perform anti-lock brakes—read that probably none at a typical track event.
When ever I was on track, I never worried about myself, it was always the other driver, who I hope has ABS.

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Guess I’m old school. I like to modulate the brakes myself. I have only flat spotted my tires one time and it wasn’t on the track. A deer :deer: ran out in front of me. Thank goodness I didn’t hit it.

My most memorable flat spot was at the start of a sprint race at Daytona. Lots of fun when you lock up avoiding a mess on T1 right after the green was thrown (GrandAm GT3 Porsche)

My tire was octagonal (ha ha) at the end of the race. I thought my fillings will come off. Did (most of us did) 10 laps hitting over 170 twice per lap. We wouldn’t quit. Conversation post race was quite funny.

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Thump, thump, thump…. :face_with_diagonal_mouth:. Not a good sound.

ABS has no impact on your ability to modulate braking. ABS intervenes only upon wheel lock up. That is, ABS becomes active only when you screw up. Up until this point the brakes act exactly the same as a car without ABS.

ABS then intervenes with threshold braking, which stops quicker than lock up and maintains the ability to steer. And it does this better than we can.

There is no downside. If one can brake at threshold without lock up one will never invoke ABS.

Unless you enjoy locking up the wheels. :slight_smile:

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Elk, I think what you say is fine in practice but not really what happens. On circuit my GT3 will use ABS at high speed, say 100mph, very readily, i.e. it often surprises me that it’s kicked in. My road car will also invoke ABS if I hit a bump in the road (here in the UK they like putting speed bumps across the road as a ā€˜traffiic calmer’).

Edited to say that in the UK the speed bumps placed over the road as traffic calming measures are also called ā€˜sleeping policemen’.

Edit - I should have added that my hatchback road car will invoke ABS when a bump is hit whilst braking (the bump in the road could be a pot hole or a sleeping policeman.

Also, of interest to some, was that in the mid '80s I had a car called a Ford Escort Turbo. It had a mechanical ABS system rather than something that’s electronic. It would sometimes scare me by having the ABS come in when approaching a roundabout and the car end up a few feet into the roundabout - it should never have come in and was lethal IMO.

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I’ll never understand some folks opposition to ABS intervention. In my experience, most recently in an M2 Competition, ABS kicks in when it needs to. It’s the difference between having steering control or not having steering control.

You are correct and I an sorry if I was unclear or appeared to provide incorrect information.

ABS can indeed intervene briefly in various circumstances shy of full lock up.

Similarly traction control can kick in upon driving over a sharp bump while accelerating hard, handling aids can also activate when it appears unnecessary.

Often the car is right however. :slight_smile:

I do wonder what your GT3 is doing. I have not experienced anything like this in any car.

I like the phrase traffic calmer.

Driver aids are a funny thing (in racing) where you are looking for the absolute best at all times and on every lap.

When I’m racing non/abs traction control cars, you modulate (have to) however on the modern cars, stab the brakes hard enough to summon ABS (mind you we use ā€œrace absā€) which is the quickest way to slow down and modulation only comes in upon release, then when its time to go back on power you stab the gas to summon traction control.

As a practical comparison, one of my cars had no ABS until it became mandatory. My best lap at Sebring doing it the old fashioned way was 2:07.3 when we added Bosch Race ABS that dropped to consistent 2:06s. Not a huge delta except in a race where top ten are all within 1.5 secs

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I like both cars, Vipers and Vettes, plus many more. High on my appreciation list are the MX5 and Caymans. Today’s discussions give me the thought, what would a designed Viper with a mid engine look like, perform, etc?

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An amazing improvement in lap times. And a great example of how the car can be better than us.

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A mid-engine Viper would require a redesign. Compare the C7 Corvette with the mid-engine C8.

The biggest issue is the long hood of the front engine cars. One needs to move the seats forward to accomodate the move of the engine to behind the passengers.

I bet there are design studies on the web created by Viper enthusiats.

They had a 12 cylinder with MB power, stunning prototype. Pics don’t do it justice.

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Neat machine!

It does not appear to be a Viper or related other than part of the same Dodge performance group.

Just to prove that common knowledge can be rather empty, a friend has a 1967 Lancia Fulvia Sport Zagato (for sale) that has fantastic handling and a pretty impressive racing heritage (the model, not his).
And it’s front drive AND the engine is completely in front of the front axle. The handling is excellent, go figure.

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@RonP that is a sweet sounding car. Those Lancias and the old Alfas sound incredible. The Fulvia Sport is a very pretty fastback (unlike the later Beta Scorpion which was an acquired taste)

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Can be yours for a mere bag of shells: 1967 Lancia Fulvia Sport 1.3S Zagato | High Marques Motorcars

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maybe now that the Cosmo on BAT went beyond my threshold of pain…

Cosmo—One of my wish list cars.

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