Levi said: Gordon: my sister has been suggesting similar exercises so you can't be to far off :-)) Seriously am considering trying something "meditation-yoga-relaxing-like". Know absolutely nothing about it.
Curiosity is a good place to start.
I just read elk's post and although I largely disagree with his position I appreciate that he can be a good sounding board on the discussion as he will almost certainly continue represent that perspective. That's a good thing as we should question the parts of this we are less comfortable with.
Let's dismiss all the "buzz words" like myth, religion, yada yada yada and look at this as simply as possible.
The prime objective of any sentient being is to just be HAPPY.
While we could certainly question whether an ant or spider has this quest it really does not matter.
We know they have fear so why not other emotions?
Why do we want to be HAPPY? Because it feels good. Simple.
If something feels good then we like it and subconsciously as well as consciously we look for more.
How much of our day is spent on the quest for happiness? Ah, like maybe most of it?
So the conscious mind finds ways to induce happiness and those "moments" come and go like the stock market. Up and down and up and down. Well that's life, isn't it?
We know that we also have a "sub-conscience" that helps run the body parts, emotions, creativity,etc and as we have evolved over millenniums we have heavily exercised and developed our cognitive area of the brain and counted on "HABITS' to Auto-Pilot our subconscious functions.
So this is what all the big fuss is really about.
We have become "creatures of habit" and we should ask ourselves if we have developed good or bad habits and if we have developed the BEST habits we are capable of.
This it it!
Ok, so let's look at the "WHY and HOW".
If we try to do this in a purely conscious [logical] manner we may first encounter resistance by our ego that sees things in it's present perspective and will fight pretty hard to hold that view.
We really do not know how to overcome this even if we consider ourselves "open".
We start with good intentions but the the "stock market" kicks in and we need to put it off for a while.
We can do the same thing that going to the gym does for our muscles.
We can do an exercise routine that after a while becomes easier to do than not to do.
It infiltrates our routine.
Anyone who has done any exercise, gym, running, etc knows that it does in fact bring with it a feeling of euphoria or "happiness" and you feel better.
If you abandon the practice do you not feel less "better" within a week. You almost crave the exercise because it makes you feel good.
The effect of "mental" exercises are similar and because they tend to heighten the interaction between the different parts of the brain as well as helping us to be less affected by our "stock market", we can indeed feel happier.
Why do we need a program to do this?
The same as learning any new skill from a professor, piano teacher, etc. It usually works better if we learn, initially, from someone with credentials and a proven methodology.
It matters not where we start of if we follow any particular "religious" path or none.
Yoga is a great place to start since it stimulate the body and some classes add an element of "relaxation" that will offer a glimpse of our own minds and how volatile our thoughts are.
You can also tell your friends and they won't look at you funny because it is now so widespread.
Most yoga teachers are now studying various forms of meditation both to differentiate and expand their communities.
The neuroscientists are going straight to the "mother-ship" of Tantric meditation because its practitioners tend to cause the biggest readings on their measurement equipment and this is really generating huge research money for thee studies.
This is really something where you find a center and drop in to see if this is something you would invest some time on or not.
It first needs to be "DE-mystified" and then some rather simple exercises.
My friend Tim Olmsted [ Steamboat Springs, Co] gives an online introduction course that might be good to do.
Tim has years of practice, has had some of the best teachers in the world and presents in a Westernized way that is familiar and palatable.
I will post a couple of videos a bit later that may give some insight into the WHY,HOW and the intellectual and scientific reasons why this actually works.
Then we can all come to our own conclusions about what really is our "natural Nature" and WHY it is so.
No T-shirts or Kool-Aid for sale.
Here is a good start from an academic perspective. You can skip part of the intro but it does outline the program as well as identify the players.
http://learning.tergar.org/2011/11/03/sustainable-happiness-1/
http://learning.tergar.org/2011/11/03/sustainable-happiness-2/
This is also a good one Sponsored and hosted by Google for it's staff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwwKbM_vJc
Gordon said: Let's dismiss all the "buzz words" like myth, religion . . .
No offense intended. I try to avoid formal nomenclature as most are both unfamiliar and uncomfortable with it. Please also note my comments had absolutely nothing to do with meditation. Rather, I was addressing the question of whether humans inherently act in altruistic or selfish ways and merely note this is a unifying topic and question of all religions. Curious, yes?
Gordon said: How much of our day is spent on the quest for happiness?
It depends on the fullness of our stomach - unless the simple pursuit of survival is a quest for happiness. The quest for happiness is, as with audio, a first world problem.
I am agnostic as to the claimed benefits of meditation. It works wonderfully well for some and does absolutely nothing for others.
Like religion. :)
As a side note: I recognize that some Buddhists assert Buddhism is a science, not religion. An interesting claim, to say the least.
@elk
I respect your “view”, especially since you shared that it is developed by your experiences.
I do suspect, however, that there is more to our psyche than what we are able to grasp at the moment based solely on logic and present day science.
I am indeed the most vocal in my family about my doubts of the ultimate benefits of religion or guru worshiping NOT because I disagree with the concepts or comforts that they appear to bring to others but because I think that their limitation is that they are “learned” or socially inherited additives and do not leave us with much if they are ever stripped away for any reason.
I do not believe that we are naturally selfish or destructive in nature for the simple reason that neither make us HAPPY. Brain imaging shows this clearly.
So all we have to do to be more HAPPY is to deal with some of the issues that plague us that affect our negative emotions.
We can accomplish this with greater “mindfulness” which is a NEW WORLD term that appears to be more palatable to our western minds.
The Center For Mindfulness was born at the U of Mass Medical center about 30 years ago and"mindfulness" is virtually a household word today and is now being studied and taught in EVERY major North American university.
Interestingly, the seed money to begin the “Mindfulness” project and major funding till today comes from the Dali Lama’s foundation for the Advancement of Learning.
There may well be many successful paths to better understanding and taming our bristly minds but few are being as seriously studied for their ultimate effects on the brain, mental and physical health and legitimate HAPPINESS.
Few, if any, offer a step by step guide that will work for almost anyone and has been in service for over 2000 years.
I have many acquaintances who have “meditated” for decades[ especially Zen and Theravada schools] and are still awaiting some kind of epiphany. Some are even bitter that the sweet bird of enlightenment has yet to poop on them after so long.
Their “expectations” are often unreasonable and possibly they think by putting in the hours that they will “deserve” some magical reward. It does not work like that, from my experience.
We can, fairly quickly. with a few simple exercises re-establish a benchmark for what calmness feels like and begin to be more aware [at an enriched level] of our thoughts and how they are affecting our reactions and decisions throughout the day.
No Big Deal! No mystery and no magic.
We all can grasp the concept of carrying a 5 pound weight in each hand while we take a brisk walk.
So the idea is to carry an equal additional tool for the brain with us wherever we go. It does change the results of our efforts.
Meditation while sitting on a cushion is helpful at the beginning but we do not LIVE on cushions. We need tools that are portable like our smart phones that we can take with us in the real world.
As described in the videos, these tools are readily available and our friends in the Science departments are validating new benefits for them almost every day.
We are always looking for a good return on our investments and greater minds than mine are sharing their proven techniques more freely than ever.
Some of you are already asking some good questions by PM and I’m happy to respond if you prefer that method.
I have no interest other than to share what I have been fortunate to experience and in the same way that an Audio tweak might improve your own systems.
elk, if you are comfortable in sharing, I would be interested to know what type of meditation you practiced and the lineage of your instructors.
Johnjen: "then if I do engage in an exchange with him, I am giving him my support, by sending energy his way, which just fuels the drama all the more, and at least I understand that going in.“
completely agree. i have no illusions when i enter these “drama’s”. my goal is simply to point out a boundary crossed and to lower the “comfort level” of the person. the end game “hope” is to make him/her feel less comfortable next time around. in this case…i would hope the op would not use insulting/narrow minded comments moving forward. no…it doesn’t work all the time but sometimes it does. the possibility of some folks learning makes engaging worth it to me.
just to make sure we’re on the same page…i’m not looking for him to like the pwd2. go ahead and say it sounded terrible, flat, not musical at all ect… but “like a cd player from the 90’s” ect…??? deliberate/insulting/disrespectful…that’s what i’m looking to curtail.
also…making something “go away” vs attempting to stop the behavior going forward are two completely different approaches with very different outcomes imo. " go away” seems to imply “out of sight/out of mind”. what if said behavior continues?..is it OK because it’s no longer on your forum or you don’t see it happening any longer??. someone is seeing/being exposed to it…or does this not matter?
Gordon: i’m taking baby steps. gonna try some breathing exercises and see what happens. saved the links too, thanks. my sister has been into this stuff for a few years now and really likes it. not expecting any miracles but am willing to try. gotta admit i was one of the “laughers” when she first started. seeing how much more at peace she is has halted the laughter.
Elk: "we are selfish and egocentric"
yes we are!!!..as are many/most living creatures. i look at “learning norms” from a more primal view. when intelligent creatures interact…they are constantly teaching each other these norms and where the line for these norms are. it might start out as an alert stare but if the unacceptable behavior continues…it often immediately goes to aggression and “knock it off NOW!!”. as much as we humans like to pretend we’re above all that…i disagree. sure, some folks only need a stare or look to back off. many others require more. aggression when enforcing boundary lines is universal for almost all creatures. this sometimes plays out with immediate results and behavior modification. other time…it makes said creature think twice next time around (because the comfort level of said behavior has been lowered). eventually…as this process is repeated…the “offender” decides it’s no longer in their best interest to continue such behavior. yes…the offender needs to make the decision but his society need to make it uncomfortable enough for him to get to that point. we can use different word to describe this. Gordon’s “Happy” is the same concept. make the offender “unhappy” with said behavior thus stopping it and seeking happiness in other ways/different behavior.
i feel there is a huge long term consequence to ignoring or not reacting when someone crosses a line (your personal line or a social line). excluding the “troll” who is seeking reactions for thrills…a person who crosses a line without knowing/understanding what they’ve done will continue to do so until “unhappiness” is handed to him. “it’s not my business” or “i don’t have a dog in this fight” is a cop out imho. I’ve risked my life stopping bad behavior when “it wasn’t my business” so posting some words online is close to do nothing (effort wise) imho. in the long term…where do we end up if ignoring socially unacceptable behavior becomes the norm??..answer: the unacceptable becomes the norm and acceptable. we effectively lower the bar as time goes on. so “making them go away” is not my goal. lessening/stopping the behavior is what i’m looking/hoping to accomplish.
Levi said: saved the links too, thanks.
Perhaps watch the Google one first it is pretty plain English from a real smart guy who now Heads the Mind and Life Institute's "Center for Mindfulness" @ U of Mass.
He got Google out of their Creative Doldrums in the 90's which is why they asked him to come for a series of lectures at Google-U.
Google is a large and current sponsor of the Center.
Gordon said: I do suspect, however, that there is more to our psyche than what we are able to grasp at the moment based solely on logic and present day science.
No question. The content of dreams is a great example. They certainly can be illogical. At some point we may fully understand the mechanism, but it is at least part mystery at the moment.
Our lack of understanding does not imply supernatural forces however (not that you are asserting it does).
Gordon said: I do not believe that we are naturally selfish or destructive in nature for the simple reason that neither make us HAPPY.
If happy is our fundamental drive, and if selfish acts do not create happy, how do we explain that in all cultures at all points in time "bad" behavior is prevalent?
This increases whenever social strictures are removed. Hockey fans of a team that just won a game do not riot into kind acts. They are supposedly already happy. So why act bad?
Humans love to run amok, take advantage of each other by force or other expressions of power (money, political clout, etc.), let alone the many cultures which engaged in slavery and still engage in despotism, genocide and the like. Even the cutest puppy will push his runt brother out to starve if it means he can get his fill.
One would think if benevolent behavior makes us happy, all cultures would quickly move toward such behavior. Instead, people are easily tempted into bad behavior. Where are all the temptations into good behavior? (And why do all religions need to have an explanation for evil if it were not, in fact, the most prevalent behavior?)
And why do the voices heard by a schizophrenic tell him to do bad things - rather than suggest: "Let's have a picnic! Invite your mother!"
Levi said: i look at "learning norms" from a more primal view. when intelligent creatures interact....they are constantly teaching each other these norms and where the line for these norms are. it might start out as an alert stare but if the unacceptable behavior continues.....it often immediately goes to aggression and "knock it off NOW!!". as much as we humans like to pretend we're above all that....i disagree.
This is a good point. Norms and good behavior are learned, culturally based and enforced.
This raises, for me, the question of how to balance the good I may do by trying to curb the bad behavior v. the cost of doing so (whatever it may be, including the detrimental impact on me of acknowledging it).
I fell I can do little good fussing at the random Internet forum poster, but a gentle nudge costs little. Hmmm.
The raging driver involves greater risk, although I am not above noting the license and reporting it (the state patrol will send the offender a pointed letter, the existence of which also comes up when an officer runs the license. I like to think this encourages the officer to not cut them slack.)
Wow, guys. I never dreamed that this topic would lead to such a great discussion. But then again, this IS the PS Audio forum… adults only.
I don’t have much use for my favorite technique in this context because I don’t care to spend my time engaging someone who is not interested in constructive discourse online. At work my environment can be rather heated and stressful at times and real crises are always just around the corner. I have no use for manufactured drama and seek to head it off before it gets everyone distracted and out of whack. I find that the power of the question often leads the other to either have some insight into their behavior or, at the very least, expose the absurdity of their position to the others in the room. It often starts with repeating back the poster’s question in your own terms. The classic “I’m listening” thing.
“So you’re saying that you don’t care for the sound of the PWD. I get that. It’s not for everyone, to be sure.”
Then, it can go in any direction that you like; you are now fully in control. “I am curious. Your opinion falls way outside what I have read. What specifically don’t you like about it. We’ve all heard CD players from the nineties. Can you be specific as to which one or ones that you are thinking of?”
“It sound just as bad as the Bose. It’s lifeless, disgusting and it made my dog puke! The puke didn’t even like it. Trust me, I have an expensive dog.”
"I’ve never seen a comparison to the Bose online or elsewhere, but I have seen credible reviews favorably comparing it to other DACs that cost twice as much or more. I wonder why they would make statements like that? Actually, you’re the only one that I can think of that has this poor of an opinion about it. I’m curious about how different your opinion is. Can you tell me more?"
My example questions are a little mechanical but you get the idea. He will either not engage you, make a total ass of himself as you continue to question, or offer revealing insights into a careful and methodical process that led him to his conclusions. I doubt the latter, but if he does then maybe there is something to be learned.
Of course, sometimes I channel my inner farmboy and cuss people into little piles of melted Jello when they are just too nasty with their coworkers. O:-)
wglenn…are you a professional?? i gotta write this down!! it even sounds kinda fun
good stuff =D>
thanks
Elk: “Even the cutest puppy will push his runt brother out to starve if it means he can get his fill.” -
great example. watched a show on birds of prey and was shocked by the brutal “nature” of these cute little birds…right from birth/hatching. many creatures that are “allowed” to do such things carry through with it.
“Humans love to run amok”…yes, back when i was young
funny you mention hockey. my first memories of behavior modification came while i was growing up playing the game. (started at age 8 and played through collage). i’d often run into unacceptable behavior on the ice and found that pointing it out immediately/aggressively was the best way end it. whether it was a teammate or myself…“pointing out” the behavior usually had a lasting impact and didn’t need to be repeated. i’m just saying…we can learn to be good or at least a little bit better 
@Gordon: as inspector Clouseau said, “It’s not my dog.”
=))