Okay.
Max power consumption… Right. In what circumstances would the SET (let’s say the 2W AN Paladin, again), consume that much and why? Surely not when swinging that full 2W output? That’d enable a constant 270VA with a constant input signal matching the input sensitivity… Or brief >2W transient peaks which it’s surely capable of? Or is it even capable of that (without clipping), being pure Class A?
I’m confused in trying to understand what are situations aside from max output delivery, that draw the most power for such an amp. Starting it up…?
Idle power consumption - does that refer to the device in a specific “idle mode”, whatever it means for a given device, or does it simply refer to power consumption with no input signal? It’s often left unspecified.
What would be a fair rule of thumb for the efficiency of classical SET amps? A bit of googling and they’re saying 25% is what is practically reached with Class A, but that discussion wasn’t particularly about SETs.
Please do some research on SET if that’s what you are interested in. We have given you correct answers, but every time there are more questions. The answers are correct. People use PowerPlants and SET isn’t a problem for them.
Also look up “crest factor”
A wild guess for run of the mill SETs is that they are between 15% and 25% power efficient. A SET amp is class A.
He actually doesn’t want answers. He just wants to keep asking obtuse questions apparently out of boredom. His Audio Physics speakers wouldn’t work with the “average” SET amp anyway so this whole line of questions are senseless.
Oh, please.
I am not especially knowledgeable, so I ask questions. Am I wasting Ted Smith’s time? He wants to give good well-put answers, it’s not like I’m bothering him. Besides it wouldn’t even take a world-class expert to answer these questions. Just happens that one is answering them.
But I’m knowledgeable enough to know that my Audio Physic speakers would work with say an 8W SET well enough.
And thanks Ted. I believe (and am starting to understand) now that an amplifier with a given rated maximum power consumption nearing the continuous output of a P3 isn’t a problem.
(This is what I believed for a long time - just recently I felt a need to question it due to commentary from others. Then arose the disappointing feeling: am I not saving up for a P3 after all? Turns out that now I am, again.)
Arenith, my comment was was based more on empirical and opportunistic factors. My background is in design of electronic systems for military use, wherein we have military standards for component derating for reliability. The standards for passive components typically derate to between 55-70% of the device’s rated capability. Active devices are typically closer to 50%. So my comment was a sort of “broad brush” - figure what your possible maximum sustained power draw is for your entire system, and if you can afford it (the opportunistic part), double it. Has nothing to do with audiophilia or sonics, just a very conservative basis for long term reliability. The fact that the Power Plants sound better as you go up the line doesn’t hurt!
Okay, okay…
Maybe it’s the filtering built into regenerators that make some people unhappy with plugging whatever into them?
Considering that it’s common that people with state-of-the-art power conditioners which I guess by definition are mainly based on filtering, are unhappy with certain components plugged into them even though they might fit under the conditioner’s current delivery capabilities with flying colours.
Couldn’t really find tehnical info on the filtering used in PowerPlants. All the outlets are “filtered” AC, not just the labeled, filtered HC ones, am I correct? Edit: after a moment’s thought - I must be wrong. Why would regenerated AC need filtering?
I’ve used regeneration and conditioning. It’s all very system dependent, but I use a single conditioning device that offers extreme levels of cross-contamination protection and excellent grounding. Change in voltage is not an issue for my system, my main unit can run off anything from 90v to 270v. My power is already very low impedance, about 0.19ohms, it comes off a dedicated 240v 100A supply through a short mains feed (about 6m).
It’s OK if you can afford multiple P20s. If you can’t even afford one and go for a P12, you will quickly run out of sockets. Personally, I think PS Audio has missed a trick by, for example, not making a regenerator dedicated to monoblocks (one high current output) or digital/sources (multiple outputs, isolated, relatively low overall current).
Conditioning/isolation doesn’t even have to be expensive or state of the art. Until early 2020 I had two systems, one run off a Shunyata Venom and the other an IFI Powerstation. My dealer loaned me a used Shunyata Hydra (only weeks out of the box) that is now in my main system and I sold my second system.
I have asked Paul about the hypothetical use of PowerPlants in series, and yes, he confirmed that sure there’s benefits since a PP is an amplifier and is always driven better with ever lower output impedance and the preceding PP can now charge the second PP’s caps faster, and so on.
But I don’t understand quite enough - the output impedance will be super-, no, hyper-low but is there now more drawback in terms of current? How could there not be since there is with a single one?
I still have to understand how what Ted said here then can be true? I’d never say Ted isn’t correct, I just don’t get it how a powerplant can be better in peak handling than a pure outlet, if there here and there are reportings of equipment that can’t be handled. And I’d say even for equipment with a status before a hard shutdown happens, sound may already be affected at peak loads? I just don’t get how such a device like a P20 or even smaller ones should have no limitations compared to a pure socket, but I’m ready to learn
Maybe Ted just related it to Arenith’s 80A and his 85A outputs per amp…but then does the Stereo Apex do more than double?
Over a Farad of capacitance should result in pretty stable power demands. I think of it like a hybrid car, run out of juice and the motor takes over. But I wasn’t listening loud, 85 degree peaks. 92 dB at 1 watt speakers. I was surprised when it went down.
Before it went down it sounded amazing. So different than what I am used to. But now, both channels plugged into one circuit, it sounds quite amazing still. A soundstage unlike I have ever experienced this side of MBL Extremes. I’m not sure they are even necessary but I’d like to hear them here. I think after a certain point with high end audio gear you have to believe they took care of everything. Tuning rings, magic fuses, special lifts for special cables, all of that can matter. All of that can help. But it might not be necessary. When I try those other things I’ll keep track of what I learn.
It’s a fun hobby.
Those science fiction German battery power supplies might be the answer. Experiment with wrapping them in different colored scarves with multicolored bows. It could help.
Have your speakers wired internally with the speaker cables you are using, and if you truly decide on an end-game choice of cables, get rid of the terminals. Preferably without solder, either ultrasonic or laser welding. (Difficult to have it done at your home of course… extract the crossovers out, etc, take them (and whatever else) to a laser welder or some business with an ultrasonic machine, place them back in with a strategy to route the now solidly connected cables)
If you do this throughout the system, it’s sure to add up, and it’s possible. Nearly impossible in terms of humane resources to still keep changing things after the process though!
If you mean arbitrarily monetarily wealthy, why but of course. Only then would idealism materialize with a noteworthy efficiency.
The records would be fabricated out of synthetic diamond for the best mechanical impedance matching with diamond-tip styli.
They can’t provide continuous power higher than the outlet, but for shorter periods of time they can easily, they only need to have more current available thru a lower impedance than the outlet. Even 10 gauge wire has an impedance of a 0.001 ohms per foot and that assumes that every wire splice between your outlet and the circuit breaker and also your circuit breaker itself have a lower total impedance than that. In principle a power plant can have arbitrary amounts of current available with as low of an output impedance as desired (for a short period of time) - more caps and good drivers. It’s very possible that some equipment draws more current than a powerplant can provide during startup or for longer times than the powerplant can support it, but those loads aren’t “normal”.
Remember power plants aren’t just power filters. They don’t restrict the current to do their jobs, they provide current from a low impedance capacitor bank (or some other energy storage) to support the voltage expected at any point in time.
No one said that power plants have no limitations, they just have less limitations to current for short periods of time.
Oh thanks Ted! This once more explains things I didn’t know or expect. I thought it might be the other way around, that there’s hardly any continuous amount, a power plant can’t serve, but that the speed and short time amount demanded could be over its limits. I thought, if a big power amp maybe already operates not much below the powerplants’ capability of continuous delivery, short time demands might be even more of an issue. To get an impression, how many power amps might play not so much below the risk of a powerplant shut down, it would be interesting to compare the specs of other big power amps to those of the Apex. I saw it’s a monster, but so are various others, like the D’Agostino etc.
