Yale swings like crazy in my system.
TarnishedEars said@ TarnishedEars … Well put.…My problem with yale is that it seems to strongly emphasize attack over “bloom” or harmonics. What I mean by this is that when I listen to the yale beta, its like the mix changed and somebody turned-up the drums, and the transients, but also turned-down the “color”… The most instruments do not sound “rich”, and lack some of their usual “tone”, for lack of better words.
I got some time, cleared everything down, reloaded all software incl. Windows, and went through my usual tweaks on software/settings/cables etc. I also went back to 1.2.1. I was hunting out a harshness on violin that had crept in on all DS FW versions and I managed to get back to known territory. I did find something i.e. eliminate JPlay and use the PS Audio driver directly (JPlay seems to add detail to detail and ends up accentuating brightness/harshness).
Next step was to compare Yale and 1.2.1, which closes the loop to the comment above from @TarnishedEars, which I agree wholeheartedly with.
It’s as if 1.2.1 is finely tuned to deliver a natural bounce to music, a precision in timing that gives a delicacy in attack without bludgeoning it, a natural dynamic that catches and swells low level details, a pull on notes that catches the heart and sets muscles twitching to move. It’s as if Yale is a bit off-tuned and just misses the dynamics above. Tantalising stuff.
I hear again something which is hard to define about Yale. Like there is energy in the clouds (storm on the way). Something not quite under control, that requires energy to listen to. Pardon the metaphors! It also emphasises slightly the upper half of instrument registers, enough to shift the tone of acoustic instruments away from their natural sound. Not so noticeable on voice, but clear on woodwind and violin – a tendency to brightness.
As for the rest, Yale is all things good. Redbook is much improved. Qobuz (Desktop) has a tendency to be warm, and Yale calms that down, revealing clarity, detail and dynamics. DSD is also improved as regards detail, soundstage – the accuracy in positioning is stunning, etc.
But, in the end, the music is the thing.
L
Directstream DAC, Harbeth M30.1, Nordost BH i/c + speaker, USB short, solid state PA, Foobar, Qobuz, audio laptop Win 8, control laptop Win 8.1/RDP.
@vhiner1: I had forgotten that you pointed out the screen code update vs sound quality issue. Let me take a moment to say thank you for having gone out on a limb and bringing that up. The issue of compiles and sound quality has turned out to be a major revelation and has added to everyone’s enjoyment. Thanks to Paul for listening to Vance.
OK. Lovefest over. Get back to work… listening.
The topic of “Yale deserves good sounding recordings” moved to it own thread here.
@tarnishedears, that was a thoughtful post, and welcome to the online venue here. I honestly don’t know how Ted, Paul, Arnie, and whoever else at PSA take all of these observations and figure out what to do with them. But one way or another progress happens. It really is a testament to these folks. I suspect @tedsmith already has his brain wrapped around the next set of improvements identified through his scientific method. Just as with Yale, which has improvements in so many areas - including a recovery of that soundstage depth from 1.2.1 - we may very well hear all that and more in the next release, and perhaps what to some of us (more than a couple at this point) is that sense of engagement also from 1.2.1. I found Ted’s post above interesting in his own feeling that Yale’s PRaT is improved over PP, which I agree with. I take that as an indication we’ll get there, in Ted’s usual careful, well thought out way.
BTW @alrainbow, your new avatar is fantastic!
Hi all, I’ve been traveling for the past few weeks but now back to my listening enjoyment.
I too offer a warm welcome to Tarnishedears and thanks for his input.
I presently reside in the 1.2.1 camp.
My first hours with Yale had me quite impressed. The “detailed” deliveries were nothing less than stunning and understandably a gem of an OS for an equipment reviewer. I did however, soon realize that I had become “detail” focused rather than “musical performance” enjoying.
Many of us enjoyed this trade off with our PWDs [1.2.0, 1.2.1, etc] and having these OS choices is part of the flexibility and enjoyment of our PSA DACs. As some have expressed, like tube rolling.
I continue to suspect “timing” as the culprit for those of us with systems that prefer 1.2.1. The attack is a bit unnatural and there seems to be a “dryness” and lack of “gravity” to the enhanced timbre of Pikes Peak and Yale.
Subjective, of course, but I too am now back to 1.2.1. I guess we all want EVEREST OR K2 but the journey getting there is a lot of fun too.
“Enjoy The Music”.
Welcome back _G…Glad your world travels brought you home safely
I’m ‘afraid’ to try 1.2.1 since it won’t sync with the Bridge2…I don’t want to ‘get attached!’
_Ben
Hey Ben
Have Patience.
With Ted at the keyboard Everest is in sight.
G
gordon said Hey BenAgreed. Ted's a great guy. He cares enough to be continually striving to improve the product. Plus he actually listens to his handywork! You might be surprised how many engineers don't spend much time doing this.Have Patience.
With Ted at the keyboard Everest is in sight.
G
The problem is that there is a very unclear correlation between some DSP filtering techniques and the their subjective sound quality. So you really don’t know for certain what you are going to get subjectively, even though you’ve run tons of simulations.
Do you increase or decrease this filter coefficient, or that one? Do you employ this filtering algorithm, or that one? Do you use FIR or IIR filters? Do you use this company’s DSP library, or that one? Do you filter successively, or in one big jump?
And none of this touches-upon the basic design, or Ted’s attempts to get every last bit of horse-power out of that tiny little FPGA.
This is a painstaking process of trial and error, with key insights which are only achieved after ton’s of experience.
Ted is a brilliant DSP engineer. And the possibilities for code optimization are nearly endless. But one of these days he’s going to release something which totally blows our socks off again. Yale is approaching that mark in many ways. But I do hope that TPTB at PS-Audio listen to some of our concerns regarding the sheer musicality, which is somewhat lacking in this particular version IMO.
If I weren’t concerned about voiding the warranty of my unit, I’d crack the lid on my DAC right now and try a few mod ideas which I have kicking around inside of my head which I strongly suspect might help on the analog side of things. But since I’m not in the business of modding anymore, and I can’t afford to take these risks on my own DAC, we’ll probably never find-out if any of my ideas might be beneficial or not.
TarnishedEars saidBut one of these days he’s going to release something which totally blows our socks off again. Yale is approaching that mark in many ways. But I do hope that TPTB at PS-Audio listen to some of our concerns regarding the sheer musicality, which is somewhat lacking in this particular version IMO.
</blockquote>TE, have you tried the Uptone Regen yet? Whether it’s the reclocking of the PHY or something else, it seems to do a nice job of recreating the needed bloom or harmonic structure that Yale requires. It’s not a panacea, but damn good for $175.
ted_b saidTarnishedEars said But one of these days he's going to release something which totally blows our socks off again. Yale is approaching that mark in many ways. But I do hope that TPTB at PS-Audio listen to some of our concerns regarding the sheer musicality, which is somewhat lacking in this particular version IMO.</blockquote>TE, have you tried the Uptone Regen yet? Whether it’s the reclocking of the PHY or something else, it seems to do a nice job of recreating the needed bloom or harmonic structure that Yale requires. It’s not a panacea, but damn good for $175.
No I haven’t. I read your reference to this and it sounds very intriguing. At the moment I’m just spinning disks on my DS via my Oppo 103 with a Vantity HD card since my media server died. So I have no idea how any of the other inputs sound at this point.I’m assuming that the Regen is designed for USB sources, correct?
As I do think Ted S and company do read and hear our concerns .
The situation becomes that of not readily being able to target a voicing of the ds due the nature of the Fpga . Although Ted is a by far a leading expert in the methodology of programming the ds . But how to seek a particular voicing when it’s just numbers he follows and of course improving specs as Yale shows us .
I an sure Ted has more cards facing down and I do feel he has improved the ds and is close to my considered perfection.
As some here like 121 as I do not but i do feel Yale is unfinished business too .
Paul has said also only one or 2 more firmwares for the ds unless I misunderstood him . So let’s see what rolls next from Ted and team .
TarnishedEars said If I weren't concerned about voiding the warranty of my unit, I'd crack the lid on my DAC right now and try a few mod ideas which I have kicking around inside of my head which I strongly suspect might help on the analog side of things. But since I'm not in the business of modding anymore, and I can't afford to take these risks on my own DAC, we'll probably never find-out if any of my ideas might be beneficial or not.I would not typically wish this on anyone, but I hope your warranty expires extra quick.
TarnishedEars said
I'm assuming that the Regen is designed for USB sources, correct?Correct. One of my goals is to determine if the Regen is effective enough with a stock mobo USB that it could be used instead of a 3rd party USB card as a stepping stone USB upgrade path, meaning first try it with a mobo output, then save up $$ to go to a 3rd party card for further isolation and power filtration (with the Regen). I've only tried it with my JCAT card.
Ted are saying that with a server computor running AO and a dedicated USB and the rest that goes with it , there is still change or improvement heard ?
alrainbow said As I do think Ted S and company do read and hear our concerns .Paul has said also only one or 2 more firmwares for the ds unless I misunderstood him . So let’s see what rolls next from Ted and team .
There can be no doubt that they read our concerns! Otherwise, why have this forum?
I’ve been emailing Ted privately for months, and I know that he listens. We’ve been to each other’s houses and we’ve heard each other’s systems. I sometimes even like to think that some of Ted’s original work on this design might have been partially inspired by something which he heard at my place 6 or 7 years ago.
However I did not realize that Paul was calling for an end to further development on the DS so soon though. This would be disappointing to hear, if it is accurate.
Glad you are part of the process and I agree that it seems too soon to put an end to this thrill ride.
alrainbow said Paul has said also only one or 2 more firmwares for the ds unless I misunderstood him . So let's see what rolls next from Ted and team .I don't know which particular statement of Paul's you are referring to, but I think there may be a slight misunderstanding somewhere, right now I know what I'm probably going to do for the next two releases, but that doesn't by any means imply that those are the last two, they're just the ones I already have planned.
The sound quality items I plan to work on for the next two releases are:
-
For Yale I rewrote about 1/2 of the DSP code to take advantage of what we’ve learned about noise and jitter in the FPGA. The next release will do the rest of the DSP code. That redo will also enable two other items which will get a measureable 3dB of noise reduction over Yale.
-
The 2nd coming release is more speculative: the work will be mostly in the details of the sigma delta modulator, the goal will be to get more clarity of DSD in particular, but this will obviously help PCM just as much.
Of course these are provisional, either a big bug or a big insight may derail or postpone either of these work items.
By the time these releases are out I’ll have more work items in mind.
And no, I have no idea when they will come out
alrainbow said Ted are saying that with a server computor running AO and a dedicated USB and the rest that goes with it , there is still change or improvement heard ?Yes, my improvement was to a well tweeked Win2012 AO'd HQPlayer NAA with JCAT USB card, having the card powered by a linear (as well as the pc).
Or I could have simply said that there’s a reason Paul decided to name OS’s after the 14ers in Colorado. There are 55 of them