amgradmd said
Looks like a great product Paul. I'm curious, but I've seen no mention about the DMP being compatible with streaming to the NuWave DSD DAC in terms of I2S output (if you have, I've missed it). You've stated it is compatible with the Directstream and the Directstream Jr. The NuWave has the I2S input so I assume it would be compatible, no? Thanks again for the amazing products, of which I have several, but am always wanting more!
Adam
Understood. Me too! The code required for handshaking is not included in NuWave. Only DS and DSJ.
pmotz said
Interesting video, thanks for sharing Paul. I find it interesting that you think the DMP sounds better than the DS/Bridge II. As I recall the Bridge II has a digital lens of some sort, so assuming that is correct, then the use of a digital lens is not the sole reason for the improved sound. Perhaps a better implementation of the digital lens is? I bet you don't really know, but that's Ok, it leaves you with something more to do! Now, I'm just waiting for the terms of the beta test!
I am not entirely surprised they don’t sound identical, but I am trying to figure out why the bit-perfect file delivered over Ethernet to the DS/Bridge, where once there, is subject to the prowess of the DS-FPGA, should sound inferior. I don’t perceive inferior power supply or computational process. So, if there is a difference, what is the “why”?
I don’t have the specific answer you’re likely looking for. Only speculation as to why.
They are entirely different systems. Imagine for a moment just the power supply issues. On the Bridge you’re sharing a power supply with DS. Moreover, when we send the Bridge data, it does a lot of crunching to prepare that data for proper form to its internal Lens before delivery through the I2S bus.
Now, compare that to DMP. Here we have a separate isolated power supply and number cruncher in its own chassis. Its output, also I2S, has been carefully engineered and sweated over to provide the highest degree of isolation and jitter reduction we know how to design. Then, and only then, it is delivery to DirectStream’s I2S input.
amgradmd said
Looks like a great product Paul. I'm curious, but I've seen no mention about the DMP being compatible with streaming to the NuWave DSD DAC in terms of I2S output (if you have, I've missed it). You've stated it is compatible with the Directstream and the Directstream Jr. The NuWave has the I2S input so I assume it would be compatible, no? Thanks again for the amazing products, of which I have several, but am always wanting more!
Adam
Understood. Me too! The code required for handshaking is not included in NuWave. Only DS and DSJ.
That makes me wonder why the I2S input is even on the NuWave to begin with. If PS Audio can’t connect with it, who will?
Amgradmd, Paul was saying only the DSD from an SACD can’t be sent over the I2S to the Nu Wave DAC. I think all other data can be, including hi-res burned to a DVD (I have never done this but heard this, or something like it, is possible). For Nu Wave DAC owners I would think finding a good used PWT would be the best option, the new DMP will cost several times the Nu Wave’s original cost. You can stream DSD to the Nu Wave, correct?
pmotz said
Interesting video, thanks for sharing Paul. I find it interesting that you think the DMP sounds better than the DS/Bridge II. As I recall the Bridge II has a digital lens of some sort, so assuming that is correct, then the use of a digital lens is not the sole reason for the improved sound. Perhaps a better implementation of the digital lens is? I bet you don't really know, but that's Ok, it leaves you with something more to do! Now, I'm just waiting for the terms of the beta test!
I am not entirely surprised they don’t sound identical, but I am trying to figure out why the bit-perfect file delivered over Ethernet to the DS/Bridge, where once there, is subject to the prowess of the DS-FPGA, should sound inferior. I don’t perceive inferior power supply or computational process. So, if there is a difference, what is the “why”?
I don’t have the specific answer you’re likely looking for. Only speculation as to why.
They are entirely different systems. Imagine for a moment just the power supply issues. On the Bridge you’re sharing a power supply with DS. Moreover, when we send the Bridge data, it does a lot of crunching to prepare that data for proper form to its internal Lens before delivery through the I2S bus.
Now, compare that to DMP. Here we have a separate isolated power supply and number cruncher in its own chassis. Its output, also I2S, has been carefully engineered and sweated over to provide the highest degree of isolation and jitter reduction we know how to design. Then, and only then, it is delivery to DirectStream’s I2S input.
These are very different scenarios.
Thanks Paul. Actually, this is exactly what I was looking for. Maybe speculative, but it at least offers some real distinctions that might explain the difference. Interesting.
Will we have more control over the list of tracks playing on the CD or SACD now, compared to the PWT? Currently, the only options, besides playing the disc through, is to repeat a track or repeat the disc. I am specifically wondering if we will be able to play just selected tracks off a disc or create our own list of tracks to play from the disc. That is one of the few things I missed when I upgraded to the PWT compared to my old CD Player.
There won’t be programming as such. Sorry. You can, of course, play selected individual tracks, fast forward, reverse, skip ahead and back, but that’s also available on the PWT.
Thanks for the quick reply. That’s obviously not a deal breaker as I’ve been without that ability for years. I was actually thinking in terms of just being able to play a group of tracks from a disc that I could program ahead of time.
I have many of the RVG remastered Blue Note CD’s, for example, that contain the entire original album and often several additional tracks recorded at the same session but not on the original LP release. Sometimes I just want to listen to the original album. The other prime example would be a classical disc that may contain two symphonies, each 4 tracks in length. Obviously, if I just wanted to listen to the second symphony I would start at track 5. It would have been convenient to be able to program the player to play just the first 4 tracks if I wanted to hear just the first symphony.
Perhaps because I was able to do just that with my old CD player (Musical Fidelity Nuvista 3D CD) I miss this ability.
Paul McGowan said
Thanks. It is indeed an intriguing product.
The input from the USB is relatively basic, handling all formats the player handles too. It will not support gapless, and there is no external app to control it (though that would have been a great feature).
Can you elaborate on the “it will not support Gapless” comment? Are you saying an “artificial” gap will be heard between tracks? Not sure I understand what this means…thanks in advance.
pmotz said
Amgradmd, Paul was saying only the DSD from an SACD can't be sent over the I2S to the Nu Wave DAC. I think all other data can be, including hi-res burned to a DVD (I have never done this but heard this, or something like it, is possible). For Nu Wave DAC owners I would think finding a good used PWT would be the best option, the new DMP will cost several times the Nu Wave's original cost. You can stream DSD to the Nu Wave, correct?
I appreciate the reply. Not sure if I understand what the point of I2S is if you're not going to use it for DSD? Part of the name is "DSD" after all, as in "DSD NuWave DAC". AS I understand it that input was included in anticipation of DSD input. So that begs the question regarding the I2S port on the NuWave. What is it's purpose? Did PSA anticipate using it for streaming DSD from the DMP but technical factors kept them from making it work? Was the I2S input on the NuWave improperly implemented? I think as an owner of this DAC it's fair to ask for an explanation.
The I2S input can accept data from a number of sources. There is a compatibility list link somewhere on the forum. Only DSD from an SACD played on the new player cannot be sent over I2S to the NuWave DAC as it does not have the encryption handshaking ability. I assume the NuWave will also accept DSD packaged as DOP.
Keep in mind the DMP did not exist when the NuWave was designed, and the NuWave does not have nearly the programming flexibility as the DS.
pmotz said
Amgradmd, Paul was saying only the DSD from an SACD can't be sent over the I2S to the Nu Wave DAC. I think all other data can be, including hi-res burned to a DVD (I have never done this but heard this, or something like it, is possible). For Nu Wave DAC owners I would think finding a good used PWT would be the best option, the new DMP will cost several times the Nu Wave's original cost. You can stream DSD to the Nu Wave, correct?
I appreciate the reply. Not sure if I understand what the point of I2S is if you're not going to use it for DSD? Part of the name is "DSD" after all, as in "DSD NuWave DAC". AS I understand it that input was included in anticipation of DSD input. So that begs the question regarding the I2S port on the NuWave. What is it's purpose? Did PSA anticipate using it for streaming DSD from the DMP but technical factors kept them from making it work? Was the I2S input on the NuWave improperly implemented? I think as an owner of this DAC it's fair to ask for an explanation.
Indeed it does deserve an explanation. The I²S input on the NuWave DSD does handle DSD. It has since it's launch and a few people have taken advantage of it through their PWT by cutting discs with DSD on them, replacing the file names to .WAV to trick the PWT. That's neither practical nor easy, but that has happened. Also, other manufacturers, like Sonore, who use our I²S over HDMI protocols, send DSD to our products through theirs.
The reason we put the I²S input on the NuWave DSD was, in fact, not to support DSD but to support the raw signals sent by the PWT. We should remember that for the last 8 years, before everyone was even interested in DSD, our innovative I²S system has been the de facto standard for superior data transmission of CD as well as high resolution PCM. Our I²S protocols have been adopted by a number of manufacturers and we wanted to make sure that even our lower cost DAC had the ability to accept digital audio data in the same correct way as our other products.
With the launch of DMP more than just I²S has changed. To make DMP send the unencrypted layer on the SACD to our DAC, legally, we had to make sure it could not be copied. To do this, we devised a clever code based handshake scheme initiated by DMP. To “seal the deal” the receiving DAC had to be upgraded to make the handshake. It is anything but simple and we are checking for the DAC’s ID, serial number, etc. It’s more than just a handshake - it’s an actual “fact checker” that verifies the authenticity of the decoding device. We did this to ensure some clever hacker couldn’t easily decipher what we’ve done (like flip a polarity bit) and make an easy copy box - or program. Then we’d be in hot water with Sony. That’s something we don’t want for two reasons. First, they’re just a little bigger than we are. Second, we respect the rights of musicians and labels and want to honor their desire to not open the flood gates to what is, essentially, a copy of their master tape.
To manage all this after the fact - the fact that DACs were released well before we ever figured out how to do this handshake or even if we could successfully go forward with our DMP project, we had to update all the DirectStreams in the field. That was what the Torreys firmware update was really all about. Sure, it had Ted’s latest thinking on the state of digital sound reproduction, but buried in that code was also the keys to making DMP work. Without Torreys installed, DMP will not handshake with our DACs.
As was mentioned in another post, NuWave DSD hasn’t the ability to be field updated. Thus, we cannot add the handshake. Also, I am not certain NuWave has enough “brain power” to handle the complex algorithms needed to make the handshake work. Might be able to, I just never looked into it.
So yes, NuWave does handle DSD overI²S. However, it cannot do the handshake to allow the DSD layer on SACD to be reproduced.
Elk said
The I2S input can accept data from a number of sources. There is a compatibility list link somewhere on the forum. Only DSD from an SACD played on the new player cannot be sent over I2S to the NuWave DAC as it does not have the encryption handshaking ability. I assume the NuWave will also accept DSD packaged as DOP.
Keep in mind the DMP did not exist when the NuWave was designed, and the NuWave does not have nearly the programming flexibility as the DS.
Thanks Elk for the reply. I surmised as much. That leaves me wondering, though, why the DMP couldn’t be programmed for DoP to work with the NuWave through I2S? Granted, it might be too much trouble for you guys to go through, but I’m sure there are some NuWave DAC owners who would appreciate it!
Paul McGowan said
Indeed it does deserve an explanation.
. . .
That's a wonderful and thougthful explanation, Paul. Much appreciated. It just goes to show how much planning goes into all of these products! I can't even imagine. Thanks again! Now I need to somehow convince the wife to let me upgrade to DirectSteam Jr... I'll work on DMP later!
Paul McGowan said
Thanks. It is indeed an intriguing product.
The input from the USB is relatively basic, handling all formats the player handles too. It will not support gapless, and there is no external app to control it (though that would have been a great feature).
Can you elaborate on the “it will not support Gapless” comment? Are you saying an “artificial” gap will be heard between tracks? Not sure I understand what this means…thanks in advance.
“Gapless” is not what it seems to imply - that there is a long string of uninterrupted music - like that on the Beatle’s Sgt. Pepper. In fact, if you look at this album, it would look like any other album, multiple tracks separated by gaps. That’s how a CD player can go to selected tracks and play. When you play a gapless piece, the computer running the program (or the Bridge inside a DirectStream) loads the next track it is about to play in the memory and plays that next track without a gap. But there are still gaps when you look at what’s on the USB stick.
I haven’t yet found out whether or not the computer inside DMP is able to handle gapless commands. It might.
Jumbuck said
Just to clarify, using the ethernet port on the DMP negates the need for a Bridge in the DSD for Roon etc?
You mean, use the Ethernet port on the DMP, paying through the DS, as an endpoint for Roon-managed network playback? Well, that is indeed an interesting thought. It had not occurred to me. And if Paul is correct that the output of the DMP into the DS is superior to that of the Bridge, then it is very intriguing. DMP=Bridge III? Hmmm.
I don't know about that equation, but when I read Paul's explanation of why the DMP might sound superior to the Bridge, I immediately thought about a Bridge III in a separate chassis -- maybe the same size as the late lamented NPC. It would have its own power supply, not share with the DS DAC, and enough computing power to handle double- and quad-rate DSD and DXD. That IMO is the next step in the evolution of the Bridge, which is my preferred playback method.
With regard to a Bridge III, when the Bridge II was under development, Paul said they were thinking of another Bridge in a separate chassis which would have expanded capabilities. I think this was precipitated by a lot of folks who were spouting wonderful things about the Aries and why can’t PS Audio come up with something better. While I have no idea what has been (or was) done, I bet their experiences with eLyric, Bridge II beta, ROON incorporation, and the LAN Rover make them wince at another software based product. Too many variables! Even the DS has had it’s trials and tribulations. Perhaps Paul has something up his sleeve, but I wouldn’t bet on it. One other thing, according to Ted, the DS would require a significant upgrade to accept anything greater than the currently accepted double rate DSD.
). For Nu Wave DAC owners I would think finding a good used PWT would be the best option, the new DMP will cost several times the Nu Wave’s original cost. You can stream DSD to the Nu Wave, correct?