New PS Audio speakers?

Well, it’s no so much the harmonic distortion that is the issue with a midrange driver like this, it’s that the same factors cause intermodulation of midrange tones (being modulated by the bass tones). These products are non-harmonically related and not close to one another (so are not masked).

Basically, yes, it is a problem (lower distortion would be better). Many of the studies talking about distortion are somewhat overly simplistic because they are using things like pure tones instead of complex sources like music.

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They have a lot of great things going for them - flat response on and off axis, near perfect cardioid directivity to 100 Hz, extended bass response, freedom from noise and resonances. Again, it’s a very cool and well implemented design. I was just pointing out about the dynamic output, distortion and amplifier quality being potential issues but that’s not a knock on all the great parts of the design.

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I like to hand-roll active with lots of cables and boxes, but that’s because I like the tech.
If I was looking for an all in one solution they would look pretty good :slight_smile:

Fundamentally this is what Jorma Salmi of Gradient does with their Revolution series speakers.

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I realize that it’s hard to look at distortion without a point of comparison. Here’s a traditional 1/2 cubic foot 2-way speaker with a 6.5" woofer that I designed about 14 years ago for a company tested in the same conditions at the NRC chamber (for soundstage magazine).

The PS Audio woofers perform better than this.

90dB at 2 meters

They also tested at 95dB at 2 meters, not something they typically do for bookshevles, since distortion was low.

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I understand that the Kii Three and 8c were primarily designed as relatively compact 3-way studio monitors. For small and home studio they are quite large, for consumer audio they are quite small. Expensive for pro users, relatively cheap for audiophile. I understand the rear bass drivers and the low crossover makes them very easy to use in a small domestic room and can fill a large room as well.They were preceded by the Grimm LS1. All three products are fairly similar and have proven successful as they perform exceptionally well and meet the needs of their target markets. They were innovative being fully active systems that did not require separate professional and consumer versions (unlike Harbeth, PMC, Dynaudio etc.).

Any consumer product needs to have a target market and be competitive on sound quality, styling and price. Until the FR30 is seen and heard, I don’t think any of us will be the wiser what type of customers it might attract. At $15,000 they might be up against Focal Sopra 2, Harbeth M40.3 and Wilson Sabrina. I mention these speakers because they are all quite different, lots of good points, but I find Focal too etched, I’m not a fan of Harbeth looks and Sabrina is a bit lacking in bass. Strengths? Focal styling, Harbeth tonality, Wilson imaging. These are all design choices.

I look forward to seeing and hearing the choices being made with these speakers. There is a big audio show near Heathrow in October, PSA attend, hopefully they will be there. I will certainly go along.

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Hi Chris,

You are right Kii3 (without bass extension module) and Dutch&Dutch 8c are predominantly near / midfield speakers. Midfield in terms of, good to let’s say 4 - 5 m (12 - 16 ft) rooms. Like I said in my post, they are not for those who prefer separate power amps like the ones of PS Audio.

Nevertheless, these speakers perform the features that Paul described to be part of the design he had in mind with regards to offering fine tuning to limit the effect of lacing them close to the wall.

I guess that there is no dispute over the fact that close cabinet (acoustic suspension) speakers are petter performers close to the wall. Although I am currently owning front vented bass reflex speakers in my home office and living room.

In the living room I am not happy with how they perform, in the home office they sound good (enough).

Rudolf

You might be correct from a imaging point of view. I was talking about space consumption.

Two reasons I favor floor standing:

  1. I have very limited space, so a third speaker (subwoofer) is not desired. Floor standing speakers are the best compromise as they usually have a better low frequency response than bookshelf’s without subwoofer.
  2. Subwoofers can be a bag of worms, simply too many variables that I can screw up:
  • placement, a third device that need thorough consideration
  • cross over to the bookshelf’s
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Hi Chris,
I have a set of 8c’s and for whatever reason I never could get them to sound “right” in my room. Your explanation helps to understand possibly why.
Thanks again for your interaction here. I know it can be trying at times. :wink:
Vern

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@Chris_Brunhaver FYI, I’m copying snippets of your knowledge and pasting them into my personal notes. They’ll be taken into consideration for my next DIY project and if I don’t like it, all blame will be directed at you.

:smiley:

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Yes, I totally agree that there are benefits and trade-offs to a tightly integrated active solution and separates/passive speakers etc.

One of the challenges in placing a speaker very near wall is that you get cancellations in the response based on the quarter wavelength distances to the nearby room boundaries that occur in the critical time window if integration (2-5 ms) where they are perceived as the same acoustic event as the direct sound and so cause a tonality issue. To the extent that there are early reflections laterally, this can cause issues in mid/higher frequencies as well.

There is also the issue of boundary reinforcement where you get nearly 3 dB (in practice, closer to 2 db) per boundary of shelving up of the bass and lower midrange response.

The Kii and Dutch&Dutch unique in their directivity control to significantly address the former issue and have some facility to use the latter to help with some of the dynamic challenges in a smaller speaker.

In our case, I’m implementing a boundary control, not dissimilar from what you see on some of the Revel speakers and a number of studio monitors. This works well for correcting the bass/low midrange level and integration and correcting for the boundary reinforcement but there are still issues with a cancellation off of the front wall for all speakers with traditional LF directivity (basically everything except the aforementioned models).

I wouldn’t say that our entire speaker strategy is based around near-wall placement but we are trying to give some level of adjustment. The speaker are physically rather deep and you only need to get them a little ways out from the wall to get the front baffle to where these reflections are perceived as ambience and not coloration.

Also, some basic treatment (like a 4" absorption panel behind the speaker spaced a couple of inches form the wall) that is effective in the low midrange and above, could be employed for apartment dwellers or folks with severe placement limitations.

As far as sealed box (acoustic suspension) woofers go, they don’t actually benefit close to the wall more than a passive radiator or vent. Where they benefit is that you are acoustically “near” more and more boundaries as frequency decreases and so, depending on how rigid the construction is, you’ll see a boundary/vessel “room gain” at very low frequencies that approaches 12 dB per octave below roughly 2X the wavelength of the longest dimension of the room. This matches up well with a sealed box roll off (if the speaker extends deep enough), as you get something like 6-10 dB at 20 Hz in a typical room.

That being said, a sealed box speaker is 3 dB less efficient for a given low frequency cutoff and a reflex system (like a port or PR) causes a cone minimum at tuning (the cone basically doesn’t move and is held still by the box pressure) and so distortion is much lower and you gain about 6 dB of maximum output in the 1.5 octaves around resonance. If the tuning of the system is set low enough (not a traditional maximally flat alignment), you can still take advantage of this room gain with a PR etc. because you’re changing the shape of the “knee” where this speaker/room gain combines.

Also, user preference typically isn’t “flat” in the bass and something in the range of a 1 dB per octave
tilt in the power response is preferred (with as much as 3-10 dB of additional LF emphasis below 100 Hz depending on if people are trained or untrained listeners). As such, some sealed box or dipole systems can sound “tuneful” and “tight” but a little “lean”, depending on how they integrate.

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Thanks for the reply and info, Chris! For my listening preferences, in my <1000cf music-only sound room (near-field like), believe my interest will stay with integrating a musical sub and 2-way stand-mount monitors! :+1:

Ted

Thanks! This stuff is fun to discuss and I’m glad that you’re enjoying your setup.

One thing that might be interesting to try with your system is using a subwoofer with extended bandwidth (some DIY options or commercial designs good lower midrange performance and a crossover bypass) and try to integrate them at a higher frequency (around 200 Hz) to eliminate the floor bounce. While it’s certainly trickier to get the integration right up there, there are additional benefits of smoothing room modes in that octave (which is around the Schroeder frequency of the room) with multiple sources.

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Rudolf,

Absolutely right! Real estate in our “usable” living spaces comes with a premium. Keeping SWMBO happy is my main goal…my small music listening space is simply what was left in out home that I could close a door and keep the peace!!! :wink:

Ted

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Haha. Well, be sure to share your projects here in the forum!

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As much as I try to convince myself I want “flat” I find myself increasing the gain just a bit on my subs (crossed ~80Hz). Maybe it’s the music I’m listening to vs. a sweep but it’s the only way I can drive the energy and dynamics in the low frequencies to match the dynamics I’m hearing in the soundstage. Call me wrong… but I’m keeping the bump in the subs and I’m OK with that (at least my current set-up).

I’m not surprised by that at all and partly depends on your listening volume. This is also in line with research that has been done with preferred in-room speaker responses and “house curves” for calibration.

Here is an AES paper that you can check out on the subject (click on the PDF document).

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Based on my little outdated memory when comparing Wilson and Focal at the times of the first Watt/Puppy :wink: I’d say Focal musical, Harbeth coherent, Wilson technically revealing.

Chris, thank you for your explanation. I am really curious how the new PS Audio speakers will look.

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It’s impossible to describe a speaker with one word (unless that word is “rubbish”), but I found Focal more surgical than musical. They make loads of speakers, I had the smallest of their top line at home on trial - the Diablo Utopia Colour Evo. For such a small unit they have thunderous bass. I didn’t like them, but they are very popular and my dealer has a pair of Scala or Stellar Utopia Evo at home. Styling is a feature of Focal, although I don’t like it much and my wife hated them.