Elk saidI expect a significant decrease in impedance, as well as a magnitude improvement in lower output THD, together with a greater ability to address higher levels of incoming THD. And still greater efficiency.
Other guesses?
That’s not a guess! We already know this. 
I didn’t know that the P5 has a dac, nor did Kevin in sales, who had to ask Paul.
Elk saidEven if an existing P10 is as good as a new P5 (I doubt it given the extensive complete redesign and new method of current regeneration), a used P10 is a great bang/buck unlikely to be surpassed by paying full price for a new P5. The law of diminishing returns always quickly reveals itself.
When I saw the new P5/P10 would be DSD I was a little confused, but let it pass. Now there is talk of the old P5/P10 being PCM and the new is DSD. Similar to the PWD evolving into the DS. Wait a minute, there‘s a DAC inside the P5/P10? Never knew that, apparently neither did Highstream or Kevin (Jackson?). Seems like this is either a proprietary thing or something that was just “overlooked”. I did do a little research on the website, YouTube, and reviews and found no mention of a DAC inside the P5/P10. So this is a perfect time for a learning moment! I’d prefer Paul, but anyone else who is intimately familiar with the architecture of the P5/P10 to explain how this thing works.
RE a DAC: the P5 and P10 have to have a target for the correct wave shape. The new technology for generating this internal reference is more accurate giving a more accurate final output. After all it doesn’t help to be 95% accurate to a 80% accurate reference when it could be 95% (or more) to a 95% reference. (All number made up entirely.)
Here’s the way Kevin explained it (two emails):
“The newer P10 and P5 will feature a DSD based DAC as opposed to the PCM unit used on the current P10 and P5 models. We have also changed the point to point wiring to include bus bars instead. I don’t know the exact details but there have been some changes to the capacitance. This should all result in dramatically lower output impedance as well as lower output THD. I wish I had more information but this is the limit as of now.”
“The reproduction of the sine wave is purely analog. Internally there is a file of a perfect sine wave digitally stored. The digital file is then converted to an analog signal using a DAC. That analog signal is then amplified using a class A/B amplifier stage which then outputs the regenerated AC signal… I also was very confused when Paul first starting talking about the DAC and I had to get a lesson from him.”
highstream said This should all result in dramatically lower output impedance as well as lower output THD.BINGO! (See, my predictions above)
See, also, here, et seq. for more on the DSD engine in the new PowerPlants.
I picked up a new P10 from a dealer for a killer deal. I will use it to replace my p5 in my HT set up. I am waiting for final info to arrive before I decided on a new p10 or maybe a p20 for my audio set up.
darrenv1070 said…I am waiting for final info to arrive before I decided on a new p10 or maybe a p20 for my audio set up.
Right, the Power Plants have always used a DAC to generate the sine wave. I hope this isn’t too confusing.
When I first designed the Power Plant back in the late 1970s I used an old HP tube based sine wave generator to make the sine wave. That’s not going to fit into a chassis so even when the first P300 came out it had a DAC to make the same sine wave the HP oscillator did.
Maybe it’s helpful to go back a bit and remember what the Power Plant is. A power amplifier fed from a sine wave generator. In fact, the first power amplifier I ever used to build a Power Plant was both channels of a modified IIC Plus. I fed each input an out of phase sine wave as generated from that old oscillator used to make the pure 60Hz sine wave to regenerate new power. In fact, it was the variability of the sine wave frequency via the generator’s big tuning knob that sparked the idea of using different frequencies than 60Hz for different sonic results - and that was what lead us to MultiWave. Here’s a picture I dredged up off Google of the Oscillator.
When it came time to turn the prototype Power Plant into a product, we had to ensure a reliable frequency with low distortion and the easiest way to do that was using a DAC. The first DAC we used was a low 12-bit device that gave good performance. Each successive Power Plant model used a slightly better DAC and in each case, we got better sound. The current P5/P10 use a better PCM DAC than the original but when the P20 launched we really wanted to go all the way. Which is why we set a goal of a full-on DSD based audio DAC, the best sounding DAC we know how to make. And to do that with the precision and low distortion we wanted, we designed our own in an FPGA taking a lead from Ted Smith’s wonderful working. No, there isn’t a DirectStream inside the new Power Plants, but there is an exceptionally good sounding DAC and that is one of the reasons the new P20 and eventually, new P5/P10 will sound so much better than their older versions.
Progress moves forward.
brodricj saidBut you bought the P10, so there is nothing more to decide, right?
brodricj saidBut you bought the P10, so there is nothing more to decide, right?
Man, have I been oblivious to how my power plant worked. 
I had a P300 for several years and for the last ten years a P500 and never knew there was a DAC inside. Seems like I asked one of those “stupid questions”, but I don’t think I’m alone … Thanks to everyone who enlightened me!
On a side note, I was waffling between P10 and P5, mostly because it would be difficult to power the whole system with one due to location of equipment; front end on the side wall, amp and subwoofers (built into speakers) on the front wall. A P10 seemed overkill for front end, but I have been convinced that’s not so. Figured if I got a P10 at a good price I’d go for it. I have a second rack in storage that I thought the P10 (and most of the components) would easily fit into. Wasn’t excited about redoing everything, but I thought I would check the dimensions before dragging it out. Thanks to the internet I found the largest shelf spacing is 8.5” which coincidentally is the same as the height dimension of the P10. Uh oh. I’ll have to double check on my rack, but it’s back to the planning stage again …
Paul McGowan said…is one of the reasons the new P20 and eventually, new P5/P10 will sound so much better than their older versions.
Thanks for this explanation. Now that you detail it, of course it makes sense!
Could you also speak to the topic of output impedance? I gather that is one of the other metrics that has tracked ever lower with each generation of power plant. I realize there is proprietary IP here, so without revealing any secrets, could you give us a sense of how you tackle this, and what approximate magnitude of improvement should we expect between the current P5/P10 and the new DSD P5/P10?
From a big fan!
So,all things considered…will the new p5 sound better…than an old p10?
highstream saidI understand that a P5, at least one still well under warranty, would get about $2K toward a new power regenerator purchase. That is relatively generous. Still, short of hitting a jackpot, that does argue to me for sitting tight for a year or two or finding a good used deal on a current P10. Since adding the new Audio Magic fuse in my DS, my system isn’t demanding a new major investment.I’m a bit lost on this one. If, based on speculation, a current P10 isn’t as good as a redesigned P5, then to what degree a P10 is a great bang/buck depends on the trade in value of a current P5 toward a new one, assuming the policy continues.
Whatever works best for you is the path you should take.
But that is just the problem, Elk. People do not know enough about the new power regeneration products to make a knowledgable decision… My current view is that Paul and Co. have got it slightly wrong all round.
Have got what “slightly wrong all round?”
The situation is exactly like the introduction of a new amplifier, performance motorcycle, any enthusiast bit of kit. Early on, one has little guidance as to how the new product will fit into your world, if at all.
Accordingly, there are many approaches. Some enjoy being an early adopter and enjoy the novelty of the New Thing, others want to justify the new toy as a “good buy/value,” some intellectualize and seek to make a knowledgeable decision, others take a long term view and buy the new item when it goes on sale/is available on the used market - as long as the reviews have all been raves.
I do not find there is a right or wrong approach. I have often purchased the new high performance automobile or superbike as soon as possible, even in the middle of winter. My approach to audio is more measured. I buy new trumpets and recording equipment very deliberately to meet a specific need. Others may reverse all of these and, worse yet, may never buy a superbike or a trumpet.
That is, whatever works best for you is the path you should take. After all, it is a hobby - meaningless in any broader sense.