Snowmass V1sounds better than Snowmass V2

The PIC is the Peripheral Interface Controller (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIC_microcontrollers) that the DS uses to control the display, run the UI and interface with the bridge, etc. For those that are familiar with various processors it’s a computer chip with a 32 bit MIPS core and a bunch of useful “smart” peripherals that support various standard hardware features (e.g. timers, interrupts, SPI, I2S connections, A/Ds, optionally USB, etc.)

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Ted, so you are basically saying that V1 and V2 should not sound any different since they both use the same FPGA compilation, especially if the display is off, right?

No, the FPGA isn’t the only thing that can degrade the sound, every part of your system does damage but most try to do the least damage possible. Inside the DS the FPGA code (hopefully) does little damage, but any clock (e.g. the 80Hz PIC or the system on a chip that implements the bridge) or any fast digital signal radiates and almost everything makes power supply noise. Some of that leaks out the power cord into the rest of your system, some the interconnects, etc. The RFI can be received by any non-linear component anywhere in your system and the components of the DS are closest. I try to design with that in mine, but everything matters.

Noise from the display was measurable, but PS Audio has been mitigating this. Turning it off lowers both noise directly from the display and noise generated in the PIC that controls the display…

I’m saying I’m not surprised that some hear a difference, it’s been true with every software change in any component of the DS from the beginning. Over time we’ve made these changes smaller, but even if it were absolutely true that they had identical RFI, power supply noise etc. people would still hear a difference. When people agree about the differences we may have learned a little more.

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I reformatted my SD card and was finally able to roll back from Snowmass v2 directly to v1 after several unsuccessful attempts (thanks for the reformatting suggestion, @brett66). Snowmass v2 sounds great, but v1 is extra special. I will post a poll on this subject shortly.

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POLL: DS Sr. owners who have compared the Sonics of Snowmass v1 and v2, what do you think?:

  • Snowmass v1 and v2 Sound the Same to Me
  • I Prefer Snowmass v1
  • I Prefer Snowmass v2
  • Snowmass v1 and v2 Sound Different to Me, But I am Not Sure Which I Prefer

0 voters

Glad you were finally able to load SM V1. Yes V2 sounds great, much better than Redcloud, but SM V1 sounds more satisfying to me. The day after I loaded SM beta, let it settle in, and adjusted my listening position, I was swept away by what I was hearing. Shortly afterwards I loaded SM V2, and some discontent started creeping in. More run in time definitely improved the sound quite a bit. But today when I returned to SM beta/V1, that something special I initially heard, was back. To me there is more of a tube like ease to the sound, along with a stronger foundation in the lower frequencies.

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For me Snowmass V2 started off with relatively poor SQ; harsh and muddy (to perhaps exaggerate), but has steadily improved over 100+ hours. Re-loaded V1 last night. Immediately thought SQ improved in areas I noted when first loaded it: more air and transparency - more easy going while retaining drive and excellent bass.
From this V1 / V2 behaviour - V1 requiring no running-in when re-installed - I’d deduce likely that some code other than Ted’s, which is unchanged V1 > V2, in the release is influencing SQ (as noted by Ted above).

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@tedsmith Make a third version in which, except the version number, nothing is changed. In addition a placebo changelog. And I am absolutely sure that a certain number of users will hear differences.

This would be helpful in that one would get a realization about the psychological influence.

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Expectation bias is always present. But does it really matter? If a given firmware sounds better to you, it is better.

Ted proffers the technically best firmware with each release. It is up to us individually to determine whether we find each release to be an improvement.

It is a bad idea to have fake firmware floating around.

One can easily run your own A/B between firmwares. Put each on its own SD card and have someone else exchange them for you. Listen and note what you hear.

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Exactly. Or in my situation switching between two DS boxes in real time without any need to load different OS’s. I can make a much quicker and hopefully a more precise judgement.
V1 all the way as I hear it. !!

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I wonder if PSA uses the same method when testing new firmware, either with a previous version, or with several new versions they are trying to decide on? Of course sometimes the best way to evaluate differences, is listening to one version over an extended period of time, or even as background music. My listening room is also my workout room, so I’ll often be playing music while working out, and not just sitting in the sweet spot, which gives me a different insightful method of evaluating differences.

I contradict. It’s not about faking a firmware. It’s about finding out which mechanisms are in the mind that affect us and what we hear.

I have in total a stereo with a value of about 100k €. I do not have that without a reason. The simple fact is that I want to have the best possible sound. On this path, which I have been following since I was 18, I have lived through almost everything. And much (on this expensive way) learned. One of the important findings is that of self-deception. You read one or more tests or opinions about a product and you are convinced that it sounds better than what you have. Then you buy it. And you tell yourself it sounds better, too. Others say that, after all. Thus you are in good company with your judgment.

Only: The truth is different. In popular terms: Where’s the beef ?

It starts with a clear and neutral view. For this I need a direct comparison, where I can orient myself. But what I need as the most important thing is the observation of myself. And with that the observation that I can be influenced. Only when I know that, I can find an independent verdict on the basis of this fact. A judgment that has little influence from the outside (and everything I’ve heard and read).

So far the theory. What do I hear now and what do I not hear?

I hear a difference between my Burmester 877 & Burmester 911 preamp- power amplifier combination and my integrated McIntosh MA9000 power amplifier. Is the difference sound-decisive? No. It’s just different. Both sounds (very) good!

Can I hear differences between speaker cables? Yes. Even if they are minimal.

Can I hear a difference between a 50.- € and a 500.- € cinch cable? No. So I own some 30.- to 80.- € cable-sets.

Can I hear a difference between my CD player and the DirectStream DAC Senior? Yes. That is significant.

Can I hear a difference between a 39.- € USB cable and a 850.- € USB cable. No. I own the one for € 39.-

Do I hear a difference between my Linn Acurate DSM / III streamer and the PS Audio DirectStream DAC Sr.? Yes. But they are minor. Especially since Snowmass. The first 15min in comparison, I thought that they are twin brothers. Apparently, there is only one musical truth.

Can I hear differences between Snowmass V1 and V2? Barely…

That’s my truth. That applies to me and my ears. Much of what you believe you hear is a matter of the mind. If the result is that you also hear better, then I’m fine too :wink:

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I do not see where you expressed a disagreement with my post. :slight_smile:

Expectation bias is indeed real and difficult to avoid.

But I do not think it is wise for PS Audio to release into the wild “a third version in which, except the version number, nothing is changed. In addition a placebo changelog.”

Such a fake update would violate the trust between PS Audio and its customers.

I think that it would illustrate the subjectivity of hearing.

Interesting idea (in theory), from an experimental point of view, but no way to control the “test” conditions/variables or gather and analyze the results… So, despite the merit of your observation about the “placebo effect”, I can’t think of any benefit of actually giving it a go. FWIW.

Ok, this time you crazy guys got me…I didn’t want to try it but now I did it, switching multiple times between V1 and V2. More or less I had the impression V1 was a little more 3D sounding with little more energy. I was very unsure inbetween. Then I tried to fool myself and put the expection in my brain V2 should sound better and switched again. Was not sure after this try which was better.

Then I had enough and after having V2 loaded I made a blind test and changed SD cards multiple times eyes closed in my hands, put one in and the other aside so I couldn’t see it. This time I was sure after the switch it sounded little better. I blind switched again to the other card and found no significant difference.

Problem was, after the first blind switch I used V2 again before with the second blind switch I switched to V1. So in my case the blind test proved I hear no significant difference and a lot was expectation.

Do yourself a favor and make a few blind tests.

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My words. I could hardly express it better. thumbsup

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No one disagrees hearing has a subjective component.

But such an uncontrolled experiment would both have no value in a scientific sense and would additionally be a bad business move on PS Audoi’s part.

Anyone can determine their own ability to objectively judge by conducting an ABX. There is software which will test you automatically, such as the plug-in for Foobar.

I find the best way to do that, is by clearing my mind with meditation, or strenuous exercise.

I think we’ve all been influenced by what we’ve heard or read by others, and that could influence what we think we’re hearing, but I don’t think that placebo effect holds up over an extended period of time. Eventually our ears/brain connects to what is, and not what our mind has mislead us to believe.

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Of course, I do not assume that PS-Audio implements such a thing. I am concerned with the theoretical approach of questioning whether what we hear also corresponds to direct reality. Or if it’s just what we expect, hope, or imagine.

I question the discussion only because I learned by my example that reality often is different. If I believe my dealer, then I would have to buy a USB cable for 850.- €. And a network cable for € 700.- per meter. But if I believe in my over 40 years of listening experience, then I best trust my ears. But not what I believe, mean or expect. But the reality. And it was a long and expensive way to go.