Belden ICONOCLAST Interconnects and Speaker Cabling

[rower30]

If you use the amps leads into the subs with the “high impedance” inputs that is correct. This tries to “match” the sound to the amps tonal balance.

If you use the subs with a electronic cross-over and their OWN amps then we have a lot of drive current so my statement is correct. I’m somewhat “out of date” Here is why…True, you can use them either way with some subs. However, most newer subs use class D internal amps so method one would be used.

As a matter of fact, you can also use XLR or RCA choices too, like my Martin Logan BF212 subs. I use the RCA inputs off my pre amp.

Good question, though as subs are used several ways!

Best,
Galen

[MarADyr]

Galen,
I’m interested in a high quality input cable for REL subs because I have one. The factory supplied cable for the High Level input is basic, not high end in my estimation. I’ve already tried my hand at making a better one and it sounds great, but I’m not a cable designer.
I’m still unclear why you are taking about lots of drive current. The REL subs have internal amps (Class D and Class A/B depending on model) and the inputs offered are low level (RCA, etc) and High Level (Speakon connector at sub, spade/banana on main power amp speaker outputs). In both cases, the main power amp is providing low current to the high impedance REL inputs, and the sub amp is handling the crossover and amplification duties. Since the High Level input is the recommended input (yes, to provide the main amplifier’s tonal balance), we need a “speaker” wire that is operating with unusual parameters, and should not affect the working relationship between the main amplifier and full range speakers.
Does that clarify what I’m interested in?

[rower30]

The concept to use the amplifier’s output into the sub, like an IC cable and not a low impedance input speaker cable, is to use the tonal balance of the ampifer to “blend” the sound of the amp between the speaker and the subs. That’s the idea, and since it does use the amplifier’s linearity it is “true” to an extent.

Have you used the RCA or XLR high impedance inputs?

This makes building a cable kind of tough as it can be a low impedance cable, or a high impedance cable. The proper definition should be a high impedance design as it is terminated into a 47 K-OHM load (check you subs specs). This means you use an IC design for best results. The signal will be primarily a voltage signal with little current.

Most high impedance sub cables use “speaker” like cable because the ampifers aren’t really designed to use IC cable but larger AWG low impedance designs. My subs even have speaker type banana plugs for the “speaker level” input. That’s kind of a wrong description because the “level” is set by the LOAD impedance, not the amplifier. But we know why they call it that, so the user goes from the amplifier terminals into the load.

What to do? Design to the actual line signal properties and what that needs to be. Even a Belden 1800F wired and used with banana will exceed a low impedance speaker cable design. It is low cap cable (12 pF/ft) with low inductance (0.18 uH.ft). 1800F usage is determined by the “speaker level” input load impedance on the sub so we need to verify that’s the case. If it is we can make a “speaker level” sub cable for subs with built-in amps a lot better than using a speaker cable. The shilked can’t be used, though, and would be tied off at each end.

Ideally, a 150-ohm @ RF (gets the capaitance low at 1 KHz) twinaxial design will work the best. The problem is shielding. The signal level is SMALL, as it is a high impedance input so that does lower the S/N ratio to any external interference (usually not a problem). Speaker leads aren’t designed for shields per say and a shield needs to be grounded at both ends to work as an attenuator.

This means a shielded twinaxial shield will use the GROUND signal reference at both ends. But this means the shield would be in parallel with the signal “ground” wire and too cause this causes issues. In a true twinaxial the ground is NOT at the same potential as the two “balanced” wires that are floating ground reference between the signal plus and signal minus. The signal never directly electrically coupled to the shield.

This means we really can’t use a shield properly, so an UNSHIELDED 100 to 150-ohm twinaxial cable design would be most ideal. We want low cap most of all, and inductance is secondard. A foamed PE pr PP insulation with a stranded (it is low bass frequencies) OFHC BC conductor is fine. A satin black TPE jacket would be used.

So that’s what I would do and why. We don’t need the $$$ stuff for higher frequency Vp linearity control. The cable would be affordable by nature of the frequency requirements; lower 20 AWG range, no shielding, foamed olefin insulation and low temperature thermoplastic jacket.

Bob Howard can possibly get a 1800F design with connectors on each end to try. The shield would be REMOVED. We can heat shrink and techflex for cosmetics. I would use a heavier AWG ONLY for durability, 24 AWG is plenty for a true high impedance input, same as any IC cable, really. The modified 1800F would be a good trial. It is a 110-ohm (works for AES/EBU digital that way too) low cap design.

This is a “hybrid” kind of situation so there aren’t really properly made cables for it. We can look into this some more.

Best,
Galen

[rower30]

OK team, we had a small scuffle that ICONOCLAST is “meaningless” and should not be sold. The premise is that the spec line needs to be frozen such that this particular user feels the “value”. He never mentions price but if ICONOCLAST was free, he’d be using it and why not, it IS BETTER. In simple terms, to him, too good is OK if it is cheap. That better electrical is indeed better isn’t a reportable offense.

QUESTION - what are we not doing to better explain HOW and WHY we arrive at the designs we do? Do you feel “fooled”, in his words, that you don’t understand what you are buying? ICONOCLAST is here to be exactly the opposite of being fooled. Our ETOS is to explain it all to you. And yes, external peer review, done constructively is also a help. Data can be looked at several ways so we all “get it”. That’s 100% my goal, that we all get it, and feel there is a genuine difference in the designs and to try them and see if it does matter in your system.

Below is the comment from that thread.

ICONOCLAST is designed to be better, yes. And if we are trying to fool you we are doing it in a really bad way. I try to make sure we all full understand how cable works, and how SMALL some of the real changes are. I give the charts, graphs and numbers for all the designs. No fooling! Different perspectives from purists on those changes isn’t a problem for us. I see no “attack” on that front. I do see rudeness in the presentation, though. Especially when the data is all OK, he just feels it is not to be made available and purchased because he feels that level of capability is “meaningless” even to the point of reporting the product to the data nazis.

Why an individual would get so upset that the true changes that are, to him, MEANINGLESS I can’t understand. I’m just not in tune with that restriction in the market. As a PE, Professional Engineer, you have to follow the book. There is no room for experimentation. We get it. But outside those walls we CAN push and push cables, CPU’s, GPU’s and stuff to the limits.

We can enjoy as good a testing cable as can be made. True, that costs more and we chose to buy in specific area for the performance not the price. I bought a Porsche Panamera 4 and also own a GTI. One of those is a bad “value”, yes? But one of those is a REALLY good driving car. No fooling! Was I fooled? Some will say I was. I say I wasn’t. I KNOW I paid a lot more for a little improvement. Thirty years ago, the GTI would have been in the the best car in the world arena. Today, it is the VALUE purchase and no one bats an eye at it anymore.

To point out how small differences can be isn’t a problem, and fully invited to be done. It has no impact on how the cables work or measure. It does make it interesting that we hear the amp/cable/speaker changes to varying degrees with all the option out there and with cable changes that are indeed small.

The changes in Vp linearity are at the speed of EM wave in a vacuum as a reference, and slowed by the dielectric the EM wave is in inside a cable. EM waves traves at 299,792,458 E8 meters / second. Notice I used a LONGER value than 3E8 just to not fool you.

This is DISTANCE determined. Cables are short relative to the speed, and why longer cables still sound OK. We can change the Vp at higher frequencies by 30% but it is 30% of a SMALL number. WHY do we hear the differences we do? I’m not fooling myself with the way the cable WORKS, and neither am I fooling you. Changes can be made to the cables with R and C, while figuring out how to get L to stay in-line, or as small a value as we can. That isn’t easy and takes complex designs to do. Some feel this is fooling you that we improve R, L and C balance to better suit analog.

What’s say you? Is ICONOCLAST hiding behind anything to fool you? Are the ways and means to each design not adequate to make you comfortable that the cable’s DESIGN is really different enough to be a possible improvement? Are we not putting changes and data into the right perspective for you?

The entire aim of ICONOCLAST is to do exactly that, tell you 100% how amazing it is to reach better electrical and then put it to the test in our systems. Blue Jeans will happily send 1313A speaker cable with you ICONOCLAST speaker cable to compare, or any IC cables as well. I’m not sure how this is fooling anybody.

True, this gentleman (be nice!) seems to feel the spec limits to him are meaningless. OK by me. That doesn’t change the specs does it? Better is better. We sell the data and test every assembly to prove it. We provide all the tech papers done before the cable is even built to show how and why we build them the way we do. We don’t make a new cable that isn’t truly different in measure compared to the old one.

The methods to relate the data can always be improved so more of you understand how this all works. And yes, even honest peer review from outside council can alter the way perspectives are shown. This is NOT an attack if done right. It is just a better understanding of the technology. That helps us all. I hope my comments to everyone helps you better understand cable and to be LESS fooled and not more. ICONOCLAST ethos is fully counter to the claims that were being made.

[badbeef]

This is not worth your time, IMO. But it does come with the territory, unfortunately.

[weedeewop]

I’m not convinced a rant helps the brand. I understand the level of frustration, but it is odd to go public with it. I’d like to think the Iconoclast BJC Group has a following that prefers the forthright engineering based design offered. The curious are free to try product and if they like it purchase it, if not return it for small return shipping cost. Let the product stand on its own two feet, let the consumer make a choice, and keep the diatribe private. As I said I understand the frustration, but…

[rower30]

I agree with your general point. But, we intent to make sure our customers understand the product. If we are falling short, what can we do to improve? This includes your comment, too. Maybe we should do nothing the next go around if customer’s feel there is enough transparency.

Not everyone will feel informed enough based on technical backgrounds, so it is always the effort to make it more and more understandable to more and more people while saying the pertinent points correctly. That’s hard to do at times. Some say even we are “fooling” you.

The data we provide is insightful to evaluate ALL cable, not just ours.

Your point is well taken, we’ll sit and just watch the next go around. If everyone understands our ETHOS to transparency in design, we’re good. Just checking to see we all feel that’s the case.

Thank you weedeewop.

Best,
Galen

[tony22]

@rower30

If everyone understands our ETHOS to transparency in design, we’re good.

Some of us do, even if we do have a BSEE from MIT and a follow on MSSE. But I agree with @weedeewop - your commitment to anti-voodoo is rather obvious to all but the most obtuse. No need for you to do any further hard firing. If others wish to understand what you have to say, I suspect you’ll give them everything they’ll need to know in your usual careful manner.

[scotte1]

For what it’s worth, I think it is worth engaging on such matters, so long as both party’s make an honest effort to communicate, despite their differences.

I am not sure our latest protagonist was acting in good faith.

That said, with all due respect, I did not find your responses during the subject “dialogue” to be particularly helpful (maybe due, in part, to my lack of understanding of the subject matter at the necessary level?). Lots of good information, for sure…but I believe there was a lack of focus and would have preferred if you took the time to address a specific criticism or claim (or two).

Something more along the lines of copying a particular claim, verbatim; followed by a concise, focused addressing of the claim in the form of arguments or retorts that demonstrate the falseness (or not) of a particular assertion.

Assuming our recently suspended protagonist was acting in good faith (a BIG assumption), I think an opportunity to hone in on certain differences of opinion (or bald-faced falsehoods) was missed.

Sometimes less is more.

Respectfully.

[rower30]

Scotte1,

Yes, less is more. Bullet points to each condensed topic is best. I agree. I’m certainly not raised on the Internet BLOG sites so much. I tend to not write how R U today and stuff like that…but I do get your points. Brief and targeted replies, as close to zero response as possible but give the answer.

Best,

Galen

[scotte1]

Thank you for your consideration.

Really appreciate your contributions here…

So, you be you (just in bites small enough for me to be able to chew, maybe ).

Cheers.

[Vmax]

Just keep designing and making great sounding cables. I have never been soured by your technical papers and learned a whole lot and purchased a good share. My ears always found the value and I was hooked first by your technical papers and better sound brought to my system. There’s lot’s to be learned in this hobby. Thanks for taking brunt of the toxic spewing that resulted in an ouster of someone all air and little substance and complete arrogance in total closed minded fashion. One whose words speak that they only believe in their own self prophecy of grandeur, unable to listen yet alone hear what they are forever missing or see what is obvious in front of their eyes. He truly did not belong in an open minded community of friendly postulating and debating in order to learn what is better or experience it due to science learned off a stone tablet and sees its only purpose is a hammer to beat someone on the head rather than realize it is an approximation of what was known at a point time.

Keep discovering and I for one will try-it and likely buy it.

[dchang05]

I had a feeling you are enjoying professor @rower30 highly technical writing I on the other hand need a strong cup of coffee to digest his wisdom. Galen’s paper reminds me of the EE course that I did not particularly enjoy in college.

But it is incredibly fun to explain to my friends why the green interconnect designed by him works so great.

[DrPain]

Last night I intended to listen to music for an hour before going to bed. I had listened to several of my favorite tracks through Qobuz, when I scrolled upon a piece of music I recalled playing on vinyl at age 14. I clearly remembered standing in front of my bedroom window. Below the window was my dresser and sitting on top was an audio system I had cobbled together. I remember placing the needle on one of very few records I owned at that time. After a period of joyful listening, I would begin thinking I know that’s not all there is to hear on that album. The primary artist’s vocals and instruments were there, but vocal harmonies were squashed, dense and muddled together. Accompany stringed instruments varied being present and then buried in the mix and barely audible. Woodwinds were often indistinguishable and identical to each other. Sounds like triangles, maracas, bells, and wood blocks well forget about trying to make those out. I remember often shutting the system off, going to bed disappointed, frustrated, and irritated that I could not hear more clearly what was in the mix.

I knew better equipment existed but I also knew I would never be able to afford true high end HIFI equipment even if it was purchased used. I made do in the moment with what equipment and tweaks I could afford, but the quest began. I remember the excitement, the anticipation, the promise of higher fidelity when I added a Realistic Equilizer to my 20 watt Realistic Amplifier purchased from the neighborhood Radio Shack. But I was quickly back to noticing what I sensed was on that vinyl, but could not hear through that system. Much later I added digital, CD’s which sometimes provided greater clarity but brought with them some sterility and coldness. The bass notes would still drown out the subtle delicate instruments.

It is fascinating how old negative thoughts create enduring subconscious angst which can propel, and suddenly unexpectedly strike you. My lifetime obsession thinking of the equipment; “you are not good enough, you will never be good enough” and compulsion.

Last night some 40+ years later the soundstage was evenly spread from left to right, and from front to back. The smallest sounds were locked in location on the soundstage. I could follow every note whatever instrument or vocal I chose regardless what the other musicians played. The music was real, present, and palpable. It was at that point I nodded to the 14 year old I remembered and assured him he could finally relax and sleep well, we are there. What a journey it has been, what relief to have finally reached such an idyllic destination. The whole gestalt of the equipment is presently exceedingly better than “good enough”.

I want to thank again Galen, Bob and Blue Jeans for allowing me to hear my system through the Series II TPC cable. Thanks to Paul and the PS Audio family for engineering great and reasonably affordable audio equipment. With Iconoclast cabling the quality of PS Audio gear can now be fully appreciated. Thanks to John Van at Speakerworks for taking a chance and following his passion 45+ years ago, leaving his comfortable job in graphic arts and advertising, to go into debt to design and build great speakers. Thanks to my mom for not giving me grief about spending every dime from my summer job at our church to purchase a bigger better integrated amplifier, even though it was still another Optimus Amp. Thanks to my friend Gregory who helped salvage parts from old consoles picked from the trash to build my first stereo. Thanks to my now deceased father for acquiescing to begging and buying me my first cassette recorder and later 8 track player, and not punishing me for experimenting and finding ways to hack both to improve them. Thanks to the 14 year old me who knew there was more music to be heard on those discs.

[soundlogic]

Nicely put Doc! I think MANY of us can relate to your post…Some more than others. I for one, can appreciate this, as to your audio journey, more than you know.
Very Cool, and thanks for your post.Tim

[Baldy]

What a wonderful story that we all can relate to in one way or another.
It brought back memories of my journey looking for the “Holy Grail” in stereo playback. I feel like I am now very close or at least close enough to the goal that moves from now on will be sideways. This group has steered me towards this goal in a good way.
Thanks for posting!

[BobBJC]

Holy Mackerel! I stepped away for a few days and all hell broke loose. I missed all of the fun caring for my wife. Seems that it was her turn to have health issues. Sue had “major” abdominal surgery losing a part of her large intestine and a piece of her bladder. 42-staples hold her mid-section together. She has been one miserable lady for 2-weeks today. I thank God, that she has had only 1-minor complication and is home and healing up nicely. To say the I would be in serious trouble without her would be an understatement of epic proportion!

I hate it when protagonist take disagreements to the argument level and start the sword rattling bs! In our industry and particularly with cables “it seems,” the opinions can be heated. As some have said, it comes with the territory. So thank you, thank you for the incredible moderation Mr. Elk! You are the very BEST!

Now I find myself humbled by the incredible response given to so many of you to support Galen’s wide open, nothing up the sleeve approach to his work. I’ve been in the industry many years and seldom find EE’s and other design engineers of audio components, cables, speakers and other peripherals that are willing to share their passion, knowledge and details to this level. I am unhappy to see someone make such an arse out of themselves. The “self-policing” of the forum members is amazing and appreciated. Thank you all so very much!!

[RonP]

My best wishes to Sue. We had a nice conversation when you were the one not doing well. She’s a keeper, Bob.

[Palouse]

Welcome back, and my best wishes for Sue and her continued recovery. Yup, never a dull moment here. Fortunately I have my music to drown out the detractors, and a guard Elk to watch out for the few who get through.

[davida]

God Bless your wife with complete and speedy recovery!!!

Best wishes