Hello everyone,
I’ve had my FR5s since Nov and have a bunch of hours on them but I’m struggling with the tweeter and it’s output. I’ll try and describe what I’m hearing and what I’ve done as best I can.
Cambridge Edge A Integrated 100wpc
Innuos Pulse Mini analog into amp
All Nordost cabling
9’ apart / 10’ to my chair / 32" from side wall (from the side of the speaker) / 18" from back wall(from the back of the speaker)
19x14 room gear and speakers are on the long wall
My issue with the tweeter is it’s pretty laid back at my listening level (67-71db) but if I crank it louder it perks up and sounds a lot better. My first thought is related to it’s efficiency, like many planar speakers I’m familiar with it takes a good amount of power to make them sound good at lower volumes (Maggies, Wisdom Audio etc). Due to my current residence being a townhouse I can’t really play it at a louder level for fear my neighbor will complain. I have an end unit so I only share one wall and when he’s gone I play it in the realm of 75-78db.
I’ve tried placement (moved all directions at least 8") and toeing in/out. Toeing them in to where I can barely see the inside of the cabinet helped a little but I lost some of the wide soundstage.
For comparison I have a pair of Evolution Acoustic Micro One and GE BRX both with the AMT tweeter and both have a much better top end at the same listing level.
So, before I go after a pair of M1200s is there anything else I’m missing or can try? Can any FR5 owners relate or try listening at the volume I am and see if you get the same feeling I do?
I would try moving the speakers a little bit further apart, but if you already tried that, maybe try moving the FR5’s a little further apart and increase toe-in even more, if possible.
I wonder if pulling them further into the room would help? I think I would try bringing them closer together also. Hoping to own a pair myself at some point as my Vandersteens are really old.
The tweeters themselves have a sensitivity in the 93-94 dB range (even higher than your AMT speakers) and don’t have the same compression issue at high frequency that something like a magnapan does.
They are of course padded down in the design to match the woofer. The woofer is pretty low sensitivity because we wanted extended deep bass in a small box.
You might find a lack of dynamics of the speaker because of this and might try a slightly larger amplifier as a test (like M700 or a third party amp).
If anything, an FR5 has a bit more upper treble, if anything on-axis and somewhat lower distortion throughout.
Part of what you’re hearing is related to the non-linearity of hearing rather than probably the speakers themselves. At low level, you need a bit more treble and bass to sound “flat”. Sometimes, this is slightly voiced into speakers so that they sound better at low volume (though they will sound worse at higher volume versus a flatter speaker, generally).
Have you ever played around with any of the dynamic loudness controls for your low level listening? You might look at the ISO:226 hearing curves (essentially a more accurate and updated version of the fletcher-munson equal loudness curves).
Thank you for jumping in. Perhaps I can run a sweep on REW and see if what is measured is what I’m hearing. I appreciate your technical info and I agree with what you’re saying. I was originally thinking it was my Cambridge being as the British house sound is a touch on the warmer side but I don’t think that’s the only contributor.
Just for my own curiosity, if your tweeter has higher efficiency to my other speakers then why do the others have more treble? Is it a Planar vs AMT thing?
For the other suggestion about moving them, I have tried that. My first thought was to bring them into the room more thinking by taking some of the bass out it would even things up (Not that where they sit they are to bass heavy). @adifferentpaul@MrSmoke
Chris probably identified the issue, but to be safe … You didn’t mention the height of the tweeter relative to the height of your ears when in your chair/sofa, so I’ll add my thoughts on that. I think these tweeters have pretty good dispersion, but I think it’s good practice to have tweeters “aimed” such that the high frequencies, which are directional, are at ear level at the listening position. To visualize this, I like using a laser pointer on top of the cabinet, making sure it lays parallel with the top of the speaker, to “see” the path of high frequencies. Just make sure to account for the laser pointer being above the tweeter (14" for the FR20).
Chris brought the tweeter level down some to better match the woofers. The tweeters can play louder but are held back for better SQ.
“They are of course padded down in the design to match the woofer. The woofer is pretty low sensitivity because we wanted extended deep bass in a small box.”
Well, the tweeters still can play loud, they just take more volts to get there (from your amplifier since the overall sensitivity of the speaker is dictated by the woofer). The speakers will still play north of 100 dB at 1 meter within minimal compression, which is louder than most bookshelf speakers.
We designed the speaker to be balanced in response and the tweeter response is generally flat, save for a slight depression at 3 kHz that fills in off-axis and a slightly airy top end above 10 kHz. If you don’t like these aspects, I would actually toe the speaker “out” 20 degrees (face it almost straight and not aimed in at the listening position.
If you have already moved speakers far enough apart to reduce/eliminate bass from room interactions, then most likely yes. A Mark Levinson 5302 might be a good choice for an amp for your situation, and specifically the 5302 versus the bigger 534 or 536.
No you don’t need more power. I have a friend that just received a pair the first of the week and his amp outputs an actual 250wpc. He has found the same thing to be true concerning the volume the FR-5’s need to blossom. This is a common trait of lower efficiency speakers. I owned multiple pairs of lower efficiency speakers including Vandersteen’s that acted in the same manner as your FR-5’s. If you have exhausted your placement options then higher efficiency speakers may be in your future. While the voicing of the rest of your gear and cables could be a contributor as could room furnishings, power is not the answer.
While that amp is praised, the one downside of that amp, according to a review from tonepublications, was that airy spatial cues are reduced a bit. Amps that have a little brighter presentation might help in this case. Or, like you mentioned, other speakers. The Magnepan LRS+ are a little on the brighter side, and are also wonderful speakers, but they lack bass compared to the FR5 and sound a little grainy compared to the FR speakers.
Well, this is one of those “correlation doesn’t equal causality” things.
Single driver full range “high efficiency” drivers often have peaky midrange resonances that might be perceived as detail. Large driver midbass drivers with horn loaded compression drivers have a lot of slam and high level dynamic contrast but are generally worse at low levels (because of driver decay issues and other factors).
It’s hard to generalize but we have a very low compression design in the FR5 (due to the flat, extended motor structure of the woofer) and low power compression so these speaker it more dynamic than a lot of bookshelves, given sufficient power.
And yet with his room acoustics and living situation (neighbors) it is what it is. More power will not solve those circumstances. Volume will but there is where his conflict is. Not theory, reality.
Here are JA’s measurements of the OP’s integrated amp, more than sufficient.
That SET 400 was my amp for a time. I sold it to him when his amp started having issues. While it is in fact warmer in the midrange it has full extension on both ends. I used it with a half dozen different speakers both full range and bookshelf.
Well, if you look at my initial answer, you can see that I mentioned the equal loudness curve and EQ.
There is no speaker that will be correct tonality at all levels because our hearing is nonlinear. This is a great application for EQ and tone controls and you wouldn’t want the brighter/bassier sound at higher SPL levels that sounds balanced at low levels.
I agree that in the OP’s situation if he likes and wants to keep the FR 5’s then EQ of some kind or tone controls, if his unit has them, would be an appropriate test in his room situation. My friend, who got his pair last weekend, uses an Auralic G2 streamer and it’s Lightning DS has that option built in. With the Acora’s he was already making some tweaks so he can try the same with his FR 5’s. Finding the right balance for your room and living circumstances is the key with speaker choice. As I rotate any of three full range speakers through my dedicated room, all with different efficiences, I have to make adjustments to compensate for the differences.
